Ozempic: A Weight Loss Miracle or Metabolic Menace? A Discussion with Dr. Tyna Moore & Calley Means - Transcript
Dr. Mark Hyman: Coming up on this episode of the doctor's Farmacy.
Dr. Tyna Moore: These peptides have been shown to heal heart tissue and to reverse heart failure. So I've got one patient on it for high blood pressure. Tiny little dose, high blood pressure, blood pressure is down. I personally take it because I have psoriatic arthritis, and I have crippling pain from tip to toe. Doesn't matter.
Dr. Tyna Moore: How clean of a life I live. It doesn't matter how clean my fish tank is. I menopause hit me. So tiny little doses mitigates my autoimmune conditions, like nothing I've ever used,
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Dr. Mark Hyman: So just to give you a little more detail on our guest today, Doctor Tyna Moore has nearly 3 decades of experience in the medical field. She's a holistic expert in regenerative medicine and resilient metabolic health. She fixed people who are metabolic busted. She's trained in, alternative science and medicine as a naturopath with doctor and chiropractor. And she's a podcast host, a speaker, kettlebell devotee, a mother, an advocate for health autonomy.
Dr. Mark Hyman: She's got a great podcast call, the doctor Tyna Show. She's passionate about making people actually better. And Calley means, who has been on the podcast before, is a founder of TrueMed, a company that enables tax spending on food and exercise. He's also the co author with his sister, Doctor Casey Means, of good energy, the surprising connection between metabolism and limitless health, which is available right now, earlier in his career, Calley was a consultant for food and pharma companies and is now exposing those practices that they use to weaponize our institutions of trust the past series met with 50 members of Congress and presidential candidates advocating policies to combat the corruption of pharma and food industries. He's a graduate of Stanford and Harvard Business School.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And this podcast is going to be a doozy. It's a bit long, but I encourage you to stay with us the whole time. We get into all of it. From the macro what is causing your obesity epidemic, our metabolic crisis, and what we can do about it from the social and political level. But also on the micro, what about that person sitting in our office or struggling with weight and struggling with being obese and not knowing how to get out of that pickle.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And what is the right way to do it? What are the pros and cons of these new rugs GLP 1 agonists? Are there side effects real? Do they have benefits beyond weight loss? Should we be using them?
Dr. Mark Hyman: How should we be using them? Are the regular pharmacological approaches Is there another way using microdosing or a compounded pharmaceutical versions of these peptides that might be actually safer and better used with a 360 approach for lifestyle? So we're gonna all of these, and you're gonna be in a very robust. Sometimes he had a discussion about Ozempic and the GLP 1 agonist. So stay with us for the whole thing, and I know you'll love it.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Let's dive in right now. Alright. Welcome Tyna and welcome Calley. It's great to have you both in the show.
Calley Means: Come to be here.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Thank you.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Okay. So this is Saja Rich topic. And so deep. And I spent probably 15 hours preparing for this podcast, my reading everything that both of you read reading study after study after study, looking at the data very carefully. And I can honestly say that after not just reading the headlines, but between the lines, reading the research, I've come to understand that This is a very nuanced conversation.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's not just good or bad. It's not just we should do it or shouldn't do it. It's really about understanding one the bigger social context in which this is happening. The bigger social context is we are facing a metabolic health and obesity crisis that's never been seen before in the history of humanity. There's over a billion people who are obese of 2,000,000,000 people who are overweight in the We have in America.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's even worse. We have 42% obese. We have 75% overweight and 93.2% metabolic. And healthy, meaning they're on the spectrum of some poor metabolic dysfunction, which is making them on their way towards pre diabetes and type 2 diabetes. And the costs are staggering.
Dr. Mark Hyman: We know our health care costs are now $4,300,000,000,000 in direct costs And probably 80% of that is for chronic disease mostly caused by by our food and primarily driven by this phenomenon of insulin resistance, which is part of what ozempic and these drugs, purport to fix. So as we start to think about how do we solve this problem? You know, I've been thinking about from the very macro view, which is how do we deal with the food environment, the toxic food environment that's caused us to be in this situation? This is not a genetic problem. There may be genetics that low the gun, but the environment pulls the trigger.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And the environment has changed in the last 50 years. So dramatically, this led to an abundance of toxic food ultra processed food, high starts in sugar in our diet. Ingredients we've never had before that are destroying our microbiome that are destroying our nutritional resilience that are causing poor metabolic health and are really at the root of of so much of what's going on. So I focused on policy issues around my crude fix, which is when attempt to kind of lay down why this is happening. Cause there was, I couldn't cure diabetes in my office.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's cured on the farm. It's cured in the factory. When they make the food, it's cured by you know, in the grocery store in the kitchen. That's where diabetes is cured. And and and ultimately, I realized I had to go upstream to deal with the root causes, which is our bigger foods we're gonna get to talk about that with Calley because he's been talking about and thinking about it for a long time.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I think his new book, good energy addresses a lot of these issues around metabolic health. It's it's sister Casey Mead been on the show. No. I haven't got them confused. Kalle crazy is I don't know what their parents would think.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I think I think I've sorted it You know, and Tyna has a very different perspective, which is really around the the micro, not the macro, which is how do we deal with individuals, struggling with metabolic dysfunction, who've tried everything, done everything, hit the wall, can't make it work, struggle, white knuckle, and just can't get their bodies back into a state of good metabolic health. And we're gonna talk about how she does that, why it's different than the traditional approaches to the use of these drugs and why we need to rethink how we're doing this. So this is gonna be a very interesting conversation. I'm really excited to dive in. And so first, we're gonna start with the macro and and start with Calley because I I want you to set the stage for the situation we're in around our poor metabolic health and obesity and and what this is doing to us as a society, economically, socially, politically, even in terms of our our social divisions and conflict, all driven by the effect of these things on our physical and mental health.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So can you kinda unpack for us, Calley, how you see the current state of affairs in in the realm of of weight and obesity. You know, I I really just read an article this morning and said, it's not okay to say someone's obese. You have to say they There's there's a someone with obesity. It's it's like it's I I get it, but we have gotta have to sort of take a hard look at this. And so tell tell us tell us from your perspective.
Dr. Mark Hyman: How should we be thinking about this problem at a macro level.
Calley Means: Thank you so much for convening this conversation. Doctor Tyna had a huge impact on me, and I really think this is important to have a long form nuanced conversation that goes over the mic and the macro. And as you said, I've been really focused on the macro. I think there's some really important macro considerations that patients need to know before thinking about Ozempic. And that is that this is really about the median American and the median American child.
Calley Means: 94% of the country is metabolically dysfunctional. Something has happened all at once, as you point out so well in food fix. Just looking at kids, 20 to 25% of young adults having fatty liver disease, 50% of young adults being overweight or obese, by some counts 33% of young adults having prediabetes. It's a moral stain on our country where I think they're very observable and very definable situations where poisoning our kids. We're poisoning them chiefly food, the rise of ultra processed food, which was close to 0% a 100 years ago, and now up to 70% of a child's diet by some counts.
Calley Means: I go
Dr. Mark Hyman: to court. Crisco in 1911. Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's hard to
Calley Means: get intentions after 1 or 2 to kind of feed the world and make ultra processed food, but that's been weaponized. And, you know, food companies now are one of the largest employers of of scientists to weaponize our food against us. And I can't go to a playground with my two year old without seeing almost every kid there, you know, drinking coke, drinking sugary drinks, So fundamentally, this is a question about what is the solve for this metabolic health crisis and the different branches on that of the diabetes crisis, the heart disease crisis, the obesity crisis. And I think my main point is that The mediCalleyzation siloing of chronic disease has been an utter failure. Yeah.
Calley Means: Now I'm not saying a doctor shouldn't prescribe a statin or metformin that's the case and that's the determination, but the overall default to isolating and mediCalleyzing a chronic condition has been the world would be a better place if we actually didn't go this route of seeing heart disease and statin deficiency, seeing diabetes as a metformin deficiency, seeing high blood pressure, as a inhibitor, deficiency seeing depression as as a as SRI deficiency. My argument, I actually think the data is clear on this. Have those drugs work?
Dr. Mark Hyman: You mean pros depression's not a prosact deficiency? Yeah. Exactly. I and and on
Calley Means: my argument, I think the date is clear on this. If you actually took those drugs off the table, if they didn't exist and the medical system actually asked what's the root cause of these conditions, what should we spend 4.5 $1,000,000,000 on actually solving these conditions. It would actually go to the things you talk about about core lifestyle habits. And the issue and what the obesity epidemic represents 80% of American adults now being overweight or obese is that we really have a dirty tank. We have a fundamentally lost our way in crony capitalism and rigging the system, basically, poisoning the American people.
Calley Means: And is that an Ozempic deficiency? Should we do more of the same in the, really, the most pronounced crime condition for the median American for the median child? Should we be prescribing the Ozempic? And I really think when you reel that back, the answer is no. Right?
Calley Means: I'm not talking about you know, £400 extremely diabetic person. That's between the patient and the doctor. But when the American Academy of Pediatrics is saying that the average twelve year be on Ozempic. When this is being pushed on six year olds who have an obesity crisis that gets over 20% of kids in the US have childhood obesity in in Japan, it's it's 3 to 4%. Right?
Calley Means: We have unique dynamics happening in American. It completely takes our eye off the ball to say that's an Ozempic deficiency. Novo Nordics right now is the 12th most valuable company in the world. It's the most valuable company in Europe.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's the biggest contributor to GDP in Mark the country there.
Calley Means: But but interestingly, their revenue and profits aren't coming from Europe. This is not
Dr. Mark Hyman: that's fine. Is it true they don't allow us that picture to be sold in Denmark? Is that true?
Calley Means: It's not the standard of care. First off, in Mark, it's under a $100, and they are making all their money off Americans where they charge 16 to 1800 dollars
Dr. Mark Hyman: a month.
Calley Means: They're taking advantage of Americans, but it's not the standard of care in Denmark. I was in Denmark last year. They have sound food policies that people are biking, walking around, And actually, if you have obesity, you're the doctors are able to prescribe exercise in a keto diet that's subsidized by the government. Ozempic is the standard of care for obesity. When you actually look at the stock analysis, 80 to 90% of profit expectation are coming from the United States.
Calley Means: They're taking advantage of the United States. Is not an Ozempic deficiency. The problem is when are we going to say we're gonna stop poisoning kids?
Dr. Mark Hyman: They're talking about using this in kids. But we're filling the schools with ultra processed junk food that these kids are eating for lunch and that the school lunch program so messed up that these kids aren't getting healthy nutritious food that's helping them
Calley Means: Right.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Be metabolic and healthy or mentally healthy.
Calley Means: Right. So then we look at, okay, how would I use this for? On Ozempic is as a lifetime drug. It actually though there's a warning. So let's just look at what Novo Nordics says.
Calley Means: They said this is not a, like, a quick use. This is not for a kick start. There's a lifetime drug and there's see some serious warnings if you go off the drug and gain the weight back and actually unknown metabolic effects. So that's what Novo Nordics says. They're actually saying with the help of the American Academy of UPDiatrics, which early my career, I helped pay by pharma companies.
Calley Means: This is a subsidiary of pharma companies. This Danish company is one of the top contributors to it. They're saying that a twelve year old, it should be the 1st line of defense. It shouldn't be after dietary interventions fail. It says if a twelve year old gains a little bit of weight, put them on this drug for life.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't have 1st line therapy as life's done.
Calley Means: They're saying that they may need urgent quick interventions on surgery and Ozempic and not after dietary inventions failed. That's what the recent press release and guidance from the American Academy B.
Dr. Mark Hyman: The American
Calley Means: Academy Biatrics has not spoken out about Coca Cola machines in pediatric wards and classrooms. They've not spoken out about the fact that 10% of food stamp funding goes to Coca Cola. They've not spoken out about our agriculture subsidies, but they have said that if your twelve year old gains a little bit of weight, they need to be on this injection for the rest of their life. Now what's the problem with this? Right?
Calley Means: As we know from your work, that if you're not taking the opportunity to train that child on Metabolky healthy items, to train them on exercise, to train them on healthy food, to train them on having on curiosity for what they're putting in their body, they're gonna continue to rack comorbidities. You know, if somebody's anorexic, their LDL levels are probably gonna go down right away, but they're that that's not a sustainable long strategy. That's essentially what Ozempic does. It's a crash course calorie deficit. Not training that child, you know, for any type of our curiosity or lifestyle change that's needed.
Calley Means: Even if they're eating and on this drug for life, right, they're fundamentally still sedentary, like our kids are, and still putting ultra processed food, which is gonna lead to other metabolic healthy items. So what doctors are saying now is that and I think you've said this, that you have to exercise. You have to and actually, Novo Nordics is even admitting this. They're saying you have to shift to us.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Their study where they lose significant muscle runs.
Calley Means: That that it's a huge disaster if you take this drug and don't exercise four to five times a week with weight training Yeah. And shift to a non ultra processed food high protein diet. My message is this. Yeah. Let's start with that first.
Calley Means: Let's start with steering the 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars of incentives of a medical system to doing that first
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Calley Means: Before we're drugging anyone because it's a contradiction because what's actually happening is you have doctors at Harvard and the American Academy pediatrics saying the reverse. They're saying that OBC is now genetic. They have to define obesity as genetic in order to get taxpayer funding for this drug you actually have the leading obesity research at Harvard, Doctor. Fatima Cody Stanford saying throw willpower, throw diet, throw exercise out the window. In the one hand, you actually have doctors arguing that this is a genetic condition and basically a drug deficiency.
Dr. Mark Hyman: She conflicted a little bit.
Calley Means: And she's paid so we can get into the corruption. So so so when we have a dirty tank, when you have this massive societal issue, the biggest branch of the tree of metabolic dysfunction When are we gonna say that our health care policy needs to go towards metabolic healthy habits?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Hey,
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Calley Means: In this case, Ozempic is a problem for 2 ways. Number 1, it's a distraction. It's it's once again saying the the cure is in the medication. We're telling 50% of twelve year olds are overweight or obese, you're okay. The doctors aren't saying that the kid has to work out four times a week.
Calley Means: And shift their diet. That's not what anyone is saying.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Is that in schools anymore?
Dr. Tyna Moore: You're saying
Calley Means: you're saved now from this drug. That's why I think this problem is one of the biggest issues in the country. Ozempic disaster if the drug was perfect because it's giving the wrong message when it's not the solve to the prom and there's a massive opportunity cost where for 15 to 18 $100 a month. We could change our agriculture system to regenerative ag. We could give every obese child in the country a card to buy organic whole food.
Calley Means: So it's a disaster from that that perspective. It's also medically, extremely problematic. This actually to my estimation, you tell me I think it's actually the highest and most pronounced side effects of any drug widely approved in modern American history. 80% of people on this drug have nausea and 30 have extreme vomiting. It has a black box warning, which we should take seriously.
Calley Means: If we take the other studies seriously, we should take that very seriously, a black box warning for thyroid cancer. And it the issues are so pronounced for mental health because it's disrupting our microbiome, which produces 95% of our serotonin, the EU, which is actually much more quizzical about this drug is launching a massive investigation for suicidal aviation.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I looked at that data, and I think some there's some questions about it. Well, this
Calley Means: is short term data. We'll we'll we'll that's exactly the point, actually. This is extremely short term indicators. They approved this drug on a 68 week rig study to prove for twelve year olds for life. The the the research, it is showing any leading indicators that Novo Nordics has to admit That's a serious problem because these are all their studies are funded by Novo Nordics and very rushed.
Calley Means: So if there's any indicator whatsoever, which necessitates that black box warning, The other thing I'll say is let's just back up and and go to, like, what I've learned from you, which is that what is our body telling us? If 80% of the people have nausea, a 30% Mark throwing up. What that that's telling us that this drug is producing some unknown metabolic issues throughout our body. And really has some interconnected problems that we fully don't even understand. And that's what it tells me.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I think it's true. There are a lot of side effects if you're taking it in a way that actually is prescribed currently, but there are there of using the drug when you're talking about BetTyna that mitigate a lot of the side effects that it avoid a lot of the problems you're talking about. And they aren't using the product that's from the pharmaceutical industry. It's from compounding pharmacies, which is a kind of a left field thing that people don't know about, but there what's really striking is you can you can get these drugs for $20 a month if you get them from compounding pharmacies. And and at at doses that are far lower that may be effective without a lot of the complications and side effects and combined within a lifestyle.
Dr. Mark Hyman: You know, it made me think about the maps work, which is psycho research and probably this year, MDMA therapy with psychotherapy is going to be proved. So it's bundled. You can't get MDMA without also having psychotherapy. You shouldn't be able to get Ozempic or any peptide like that that's driving this problem without actually having a bundled service of of an aggressive lifestyle change, including dietary and and exercise training and and services?
Calley Means: Well, I think the maps and what's happening with MDMA approval is one of the most important events in the country and and probably for another podcast. I just say, and I'm I'm excited about this nuanced conversation, but I working for the farmer companies, I do think this nod to exercise and healthy eating, it is a joke. Like, like, the pharma companies are the pharma companies are laughing about that. Right? They know, right, fundamentally, we're incentivizing the people with 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars to eat poison and then be drugged.
Calley Means: The largest industry in the country, every lever of it makes money on interventions on people sick, and there's a high incentive for people to stay sick. And that's been the history of the post World War 2 chronic disease complex. So what we have to do is clean the tank.
Dr. Mark Hyman: What do you mean by clean the tank?
Calley Means: We have an ability today to take the $4,500,000,000,000 that we spent on health care and when somebody comes in with obesity or when a child comes into obesity, for the standard of care to be actually incentivizing and medically dining diet and exercise as we're already admitting that has to be done on Ozempic already. My point is this. Every patient should know this. Ozempic, everyone agrees that this drug is highly problematic unless you do 4 to 5 days a week of intense straight training and shift your diet to non altoprocess food high protein. Do that first.
Calley Means: And by cleaning the tank, and this is what true meds doing. This is what Yeah. We're we're lobbying for. We can steer medical dollars. It's the incentives that are damaging us in this country.
Calley Means: Again, in Japan, Look at the obesity rates. Look at the childhood obesity rates. Look at the diabetes rates. This is a unique problem based on the incentives of America that we can fix, but it's not shoving an injection into 50% of US children.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Let's look at this from a different perspective because I think all the things you're saying are accurate. And I think we we need to look at this from the perspective of the paradox between an incredibly toxic food environment because you're saying eat better exercise, but if 67% of kids diets is ultra processed food, some estimates by some studies show it's 73%. And we live in a a toxic nutritional landscape where it's almost impossible to do the right thing. We live in a society that fosters sent to your lifestyle that has no consentives in school for healthy eating or for for movement for kids. We we have to change the structural phenomena that are driving this.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Paul Farmer talked about structural violence. What are the social political and economic conditions that drive disease. And that that has to be dealt with. But at the same at the and that's what we're doing. That's what you're doing in Washington.
Dr. Mark Hyman: That's what I'm doing in Washington with the food fixed campaign. It's trying to change the policies that are driving this from marketing of junk food to kids, to subsidizing the commodity crops that are turning to junk food, to food stamps that are paying for junk food. I mean, the list goes on and on. Per paying for nutrition services and in medicine for changing Medicare reimbursement, changing all the things that we know need to be changed to actually drive a bigger societal systemic change. But there is a paradox here because we are already metabolically as you say busted Tyna.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And and and when you have someone who's metabolically screwed up from being in this toxic soup of processed food and junk food and sugar and starch that has caused them to be comedically obese and metabolically busted. It's really hard to kinda get people out of that. It's like they're stuck. One of my professor, Sydney Baker, who's a one of the, I think, most brilliant scientific minds in medicine in the 2020 century 21st century said, you know, sometimes you need a 100 horses to get people who are really stuck on stuck. We have these really chronically ill patients with multiple, dysfunctions, metabolically, inflammatory issues, gut issues, immune issues, It takes a lot of effort to pull them out of the Hyman.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And sometimes you need a whole team of a hundred horses. And so the question is how do we How do we both deal with the the things you're talking about, which is the the the the the corruption of pharma and the corruption of medicine? And this has happened, by the way. And you talk a lot about this, Kelly. How?
Dr. Mark Hyman: $27,000,000 spent by Ozempic company manufactured in over notice to fund doctors and other others who are promoting this drug. So it's there's a lot of corruption in the system. They're funding the NAACP so they come out in favor of Ozempic. And they say it's a system. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman: If if you don't prescribe it. But at at the same time, we have to deal with the corruption from the Mark industry and from internally in medicine, how things are done. We have to also accept that we're in this incredible crisis, where people are struggling and they can't get better even if they want to and they try.
Calley Means: I would just say we have to solve that. We have to assess that crisis. It's the biggest issue we face. The fact that we're getting sick or more depressed, more infertile at an increasing rate is the biggest issue in the country.
Dr. Mark Hyman: A 100%.
Calley Means: And nobody would look at that issue and say that the that we should keep letting that happen and then jab 50% of twelve year olds with
Dr. Mark Hyman: the drug.
Calley Means: Right. There's no evidence that this helps kick start. This is a lifetime drug, but as many doctors have noted, the second you go off a crash course diet, this is a this is an injectable kind of calorie deficit crash course diet. The data is very clear. The second you go off this drug, you gain the weight back.
Calley Means: You have to get to the root cause. You have to get people exercising and food. There's nothing without that.
Dr. Mark Hyman: True. That can work, but for some people, it still doesn't. And I and as a doctor seeing patients, you know, with all the best intentions, people struggle. Even if they know what to do, even if they're educated, even if they're doing it, I've seen people struggle. And so the question is, is there a way to think about this class of drug differently.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Is there a way to think about it? Not from the pharma point of view, which is lifelong drugs, which is high doses, which is pharmaceutical injections across $1700 a month that nobody can afford that's gonna bankrupt society. Is there another way to actually think by using these drugs to help people who really struggle in what are the pros and cons? And what is the science behind it? And how does this work?
Dr. Mark Hyman: And, you know, I think this I would love sort of Tyna do you start by talking, and we're gonna get into all the details because, like, I see you, like, in your chair waiting to get going. And I'm gonna come and get you, like, oh, come in a minute. Because I think Calley laid it beautifully, how we're in a really screwed up political, system, a corporate corruption system with pharma, how they operate, and how they fund things like the the the promotion of these drugs at wide scale through a co opting professional societies like the American Academy of mix by funding, you know, instant Harvard and other institutions to do the studies, which they get huge amounts of money from. I mean, there's so much corruption in the system. But there is another way to think about helping people who really struggle with with their weight and with the metabolic consequences.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And and as, you know, as I was sort of reading your stuff, Tyna, and thinking about what what your perspective is, and we talked briefly yesterday on the phone. It it really it really brought the question of why are so many people having trouble? And is there something that is regulating appetite that's so dysregulated the GLP 1. And we're gonna talk about what is GLP 1? What does it do in the body?
Dr. Mark Hyman: How does it work? Cause I think this is important from the other day. We're gonna get a little sciency here. But if if if you understand that maybe let me just maybe like we have a crisis of hyperinsulinemia We also may have a crisis of low GLP 1, which is a peptide in the body naturally occurring that helps to regulate appetite. Why are people unable to control their appetite?
Dr. Mark Hyman: Why are people so so stuck in knowing what to do and not being able to do it? Is there merit here to this concept that may be because of factors that we're gonna talk about that have come recently in the last 50, 60 years that have influenced our biology that have made us low in GLP 1 that's driving us to overeat and over consume and and accelerate this obesity crisis. So, Tyna, why don't you start by by helping us? And we're gonna let you kinda kinda wind up and get a home run here. But but what why why don't you start off by telling us, like, what is GLP 1?
Dr. Mark Hyman: What does it do? Why is it important in the body? And and how does it work? Because I don't think me most people understand what this is about. And then we can get into the idea of, well, maybe there is something going on really with GLP 1 Deficiency concept and we'll talk about why.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I may just read a paper yesterday that that GLP 1 Deficiency is really common in people with fatty liver disease. Now fatty liver disease is a consequence of our high sugar starch diet and ultra processed food. It affects probably 90,000,000 Americans, which is a precursor to heart disease and cancer and diabetes and a whole bunch of other stuff. Even kids as Young as 15 are needing liver transplants from fatty liver disease. So we know that at least in fatty liver disease, there is a GLP 1 deficiency.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So let's talk about what is it? Unpack it. What does it do? And then let's talk about this concept of GLP 1 Deficiency.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Sure. So thank you for having me.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Of course.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I'm a huge fan of your work too, Calley. I think we're all set. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I just
Calley Means: wanna say we don't have to agree
Dr. Mark Hyman: on everything, but we actually like each other. Trend. So this is good. This is good. This is like what America's missing is nuanced conversations that that take different perspectives and actually you know, come up with, a place where we can all learn from each other and actually be open to each other's ideas and have a conversation that isn't just black and white.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Well, the first thing I thought when I got invited onto this podcast guess was, well, I totally agree with those guys. So what, you know, what am I gonna do here? But I do have some nuanced information I wanna share. So my background is I have been in medicine either working in the field or in practice for nearly 30 years. I've been in naturopathic medicine for 16 years.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I was honored to have an incredible mentor for decades who was an amazing naturopathic physician and a very busy practice. And he taught me early on way back in the nineties, all about metabolic health, all about insulin resistance, All about type 2 diabetes. That was back when Syndrome X was coming on the scene, which is pre diabetes, my bar syndrome. Yeah. We didn't even have We didn't even have metabolic syndrome as a diagnosis at the time.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And so that's right when I dropped into his world. He taught me about keeping your low. He taught me about fatty liver. He taught me about strength training over cardio. He taught me all the things.
Dr. Tyna Moore: My whole platform is about metabolic health. And doing all the things and all the things being, you know, mitigate your stress, get your sleep in, protect it, strength train, build muscle. High high protein, low Mark, get good healthy fats, get sunlight, circadian rhythm, all the things.
Calley Means: Now
Dr. Mark Hyman: we get the vegetables.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yes. Of course. I know you like your vegetables, and I try. But I this whole thing blew up this last summer with this Ozempic. And I thought, well, these have been around for 20 years, these GLP 1 agonists.
Dr. Tyna Moore: So why all of a sudden?
Dr. Mark Hyman: But Ozempic was just approved in 2017.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yes. But why all of a sudden with the backlash? And it really raised some flags for me. So I started researching and My background is in regenerative medicine. So regenerative musculoskeletal medicine.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I help people rebuild their joints naturally with natural substances stem cell PRP been doing that for a long, long time. And so the first thing I did was research GLP 1 and its regenerative properties. I always look up things according to what my brain knows. My brain understands pain. I understand regeneration and neuroinflammation.
Dr. Tyna Moore: All of those things always interest me greatly. And I found so many studies showing impacts on some of the older versions of GLP ones and the current versions impacting neuro inflammation very positively. I found data supporting its potential use in Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. I found data showing regenerative properties in joints, in cartilage, in ligaments. And, I mean, the list goes on and on.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I found data showing used early. It could because it actually heals the pancreas, it can reverse type 1 diabetes if used early and started early, semaglutide specifically. And I thought, this is not at all what I'm hearing. Like, this is not at lining up at all with what I'm hearing. So of course, I got super interested.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I did a podcast The feedback was incredible. I had people from all over the world messaging me telling me I do all the things you say. I do all the things you preach. I mean, I was severely severely censored during COVID for telling people to go outside in the sun, lift weights, and eat meat.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I mean, how radical you are.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I was deplatformed for the work I was pushing back then.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So Clearly, that's misinformation. Right? Eating eating healthy and exercising and being the sunlight. God forbid.
Dr. Tyna Moore: The hashtag sunlight was banned in 2020 off of Instagram. So I have been on this journey of sort of bucking the norm for a long time, and I thought, okay, I'm not what I'm finding is not lining up with what I'm hearing from everybody. And then, of course, all the health influencers had to come out against it. And everybody was really quite hot on my tails about it. I was getting a lot of hate for even mentioning that there might be other impacts that they have on the body.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's regenerative. It's healing, and it's anti inflammatory throughout the body. There's GLP-one receptors throughout entire body, including the brain. It's not just made in the gut. It's a steroid or I'm sorry.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's not a steroid. It's a, peptide signaling hormone.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. It's for for people, background, peptides are things that our bodies make, and they're the communication networks. And there's tens of thousands of these molecules. And insulin is one of them. Yep.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And people are using peptides like thymus and alpha 1 or BP 157 for sports injuries. These are things that that are available that some of the inner prescription Ozempic. There are other ones like Vyleesi, which is a prescription for sexual arousal and women and men. So there's a lot of things out there that are used as as, in traditional medicine over 70 of these peptides have been approved. And they're they're things that the body uses naturally.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So there are a lot of things that are pharmacological agents. They're actually things that the body has and uses as part of its normal physiology. So GLP 1 is is that. And so when we say GLP 1 agonist, which is what these class of drugs are, it means they work to stimulate the GLP 1 receptors to have the effects of GLP 1.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Correct. However, semaglutide enters appetite are actually very closely well, trees appetite is a little bit different, but
Dr. Mark Hyman: That's one URL for people listening.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yeah. Semaglutide is almost bioidentical to GLP 1. It simply got as little tinkering on one of the amino acids to keep the half life longer. So GLP 1 that is produced naturally in the body, It's produced by the l cells of our gut. It's also produced in the brain in the medulla.
Dr. Tyna Moore: If it's produced in the brain, I immediately thought, well, it must have use in the brain. And it sure does. It actually has impact on neuroinflammation beyond appetite signaling beyond any of that. We've got it sort of in this box of being It slows gastric motility. It's, you know, decreases appetite by slowing gastric motility, very sort of basic kindergarten version.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And then in the brain, it inhibits appetite. Right. And that's how people have got it. Well, I start looking into it, and I'm like, this is a signaling peptide hormone. Why would we macrodose a hormone?
Dr. Tyna Moore: You'd feel awful if you were cranking high levels of thyroid or testosterone or estrogen. Right. And those are sex steroid hormones, but still hormones.
Dr. Mark Hyman: High doses of insulin, which was one of the first peptides ever since synthesized and is, you know, receiving around for a
Dr. Tyna Moore: long time. You die if you took high doses, too high of a dose. I got to thinking, well, why don't we just dose physio? I do bio identical hormone replacement by dosing physiologic doses. Which are much, much lower even than some of the standard dosing.
Dr. Tyna Moore: So I've always been a fan of starting people very slow and low on any hormone, and I ramp them up and I titrate them up until they get tissue saturation and until their symptoms resolve. And then that's the dose. And then I test to make sure I'm not causing them any Mark, and that's how I manage patients on hormones. We've got lepton and ghrelin. Those are peptide signaling hormones.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Turns out leptin and ghrelin. So leptin for the audience listening is secreted by your fat. It goes to your brain. It tells your brain your full. It tells your brain.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's it's basically the thermostat of the brain. It lets the body know energy status. Right? Grellen is secreted by the stomach, and it goes to the brain and tells you you're hungry. I always think grer, ghrelin.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Right? That's how I remember the 2. Corellen and Leftin don't work if GLP 1 isn't present. The receptors actually don't even come to the cellular surface. So I was like, this is very interesting.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Then I started
Dr. Mark Hyman: doesn't work because Bralian seems to be make you hungry. So since people are hungry, even when they're overweight, then maybe jump you inefficient.
Dr. Tyna Moore: The receptor signaling of and this was just in rats, but the receptor signaling of the whole orchestra of how these work together. It's much more nuanced, I think, than we stand, the orchestra doesn't work if GLP 1 isn't there. So then I thought I wonder if we have GLP 1 deficiency. I wonder if that's a thing. Right?
Dr. Tyna Moore: It is mechanistically. It's a thing. And those with fatty liver, those who are obese and those with type 2 diabetes. And then I thought, is this a chicken or egg? Is it due to the chronic insulin resistance and the damage to the vagal nerve and, you know, on and on in the leaky gut and the damage to the gut mucosa and the damage to the microbiome.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Is that is what is inducing the GLP 1 deficiency?
Dr. Mark Hyman: The environmental toxins. Who knows? Right?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Then I started talking to my friends who were, like, the nerdy genetic people. They love their genetic mutations, and they started telling me that there's Snips that code for GLP 1 and that they're seeing deficiency in those or they're seeing mutations in those snips and a lot of people. And in one of my friends runs a diabetes clinic has done so for decades, functional medicine, diabetes, and he said that 95% of the patients he's seeing have this genetic snip mutation.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So And does that mean, like, the peep 75% of the people who are overweight in America have a have this mutation, or
Dr. Tyna Moore: is it, you know? I don't know. So what's happening is
Dr. Mark Hyman: likely, that's true. It seems like
Calley Means: maybe, like, they all, yeah, they they all get
Dr. Mark Hyman: that, like, probably, like, a a larger portion of maybe the severely obese might have that Right?
Calley Means: What were you gonna say, Kelly? Well, we talk a lot of the, genetic arguments brought up a lot. And, obviously, it's the the genetic exchange the last 50 years as obesity has absolutely taken over our country.
Dr. Mark Hyman: But gene expression changes. Right? So think that's that's the thing that happens. I mean, genetic changes. I mean, I think it's it's genes are complicated.
Dr. Mark Hyman: There was Darwin, which is, you know, genes changed by natural selection over millennia. And then was Mark who said traits can be passed from generation to generation. And Lamarck was kinda dismissed and Darwin won the day, but the truth is they're both right because Darwin is about gene changes. And Mark is really talking about epigenetic changes, which can happen from generation to generation. And I think I think one of the things we're seeing now is generations of kids who are born to obese parents.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And the consequences of that the epigenetic changes in the womb that happened from the environment that the baby is bathed in from processed food and sugar and starch and lack of exercise and stress and all the things, environmental toxins, all of that is programming these children. We know this data from many, many epigenetic studies is programming these children to be obese have heart disease, have diabetes, end up with cancer, and many other problems. And there's kind of screw before they were born. Yep. So these these kids come into the world and then they're more likely to be obese or more likely to have these programmed epigenetic changes that maybe are are affecting the expression of the genes.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So genes don't change, but the expression changes. And that's I think that's an important point. And I agree, Kelly.
Calley Means: We which we but they could change if that child is provided a whole
Dr. Mark Hyman: That's right. The genetic changes can be reversed.
Calley Means: The sunlight So we have an Orwell situation where we have such a crisis in America that children are in utero developing metabolic dysfunction because we're being our food is so toxic and our we've had a sedentary lifestyle and aren't looking at the sunlight and being, you know, sleeping it just regulates sleeping chronic stress with our phones. So we have such a bad metabolic health environment that we have an epidemic of kids being born, you know, born with metabolic dysfunction. So it is a societally vital. There's nothing more important than
Dr. Mark Hyman: this.
Calley Means: So we have an opportunity There there it's not at both end. Are we going to as a matter of public policy and as a matter of focus in that country? Change that dynamic of changing our USDA guidelines to say that that two year old shouldn't be eating sugar. When you go the route of Ozempic, when you go the route that this is so bad that we need to jab those children at 6. That's a different route.
Calley Means: That's a different prioritization. It's not both
Dr. Mark Hyman: of them. I'm a forgiving kid six years old. Those epics. That's another conversation. I I I think that's a little extreme, and I I but
Calley Means: but if we with the idea. If we actually agree with the science and that this drug is good and should be used as a standard of care, why not?
Dr. Mark Hyman: I don't think any drug is good or bad. You're thinking from public policy, social, I'm a doctor. Tyna's a doctor. We're both thinking about the patient we've seen in our office who's stuck as, you know, what? And how do we help them?
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I've had patients have who have lost £200, a £150, a £110, a £116, £138 just using food as medicine. But it's tough for them. They can do it. But the question is, is there something else that could be done in a way that actually is like Tyna was saying is physiologic that doesn't use this kind of heavy handed pharmacologic approach to actually help people with fixing some of the metabolic and biochemical things that are going on. And I I think this is an open question.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I think we need more data on this, but I I think what you're saying, Tyna, is really interesting. That that there are effects of this this natural peptide that are different than just regulating weight.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Absolutely. It
Dr. Mark Hyman: may be working through other mechanisms. You know, I had a patient once say, to me, recently, can I just take phentermine? And and that's a basic appetite suppressant. It's basically speed or crack. And, basically, yeah, it's, like, crack heads are who's skinny because they wanna eat their appetite suppress, but basically speed.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I said, no. No. No. This is really not good because it's going to cause you to be anxious, palpitations, and have all these, you know, issues of sleep and I think it's not a good idea, but now let me talk about Ozempic maybe being a solution because it it it can be done in a way that is is different. They work physiologically and works on some of these other ways that I think people aren't aware of, like, the neuroinflammation is a big one.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I think what we're seeing is some type decrease suicide rates. We're seeing decreased depression. We're seeing a lot of other things with these drugs. And I think, well, how is that happening? And and what what's what's probably happening in my view is people are eating less of the crap because they don't want it.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And and so their brain and body inflammation is going down and maybe some of the effects of the GLP-one drugs are anti inflammatory, by by mechanism.
Dr. Tyna Moore: They are.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And they are. And so so, if that's true, then, you know, the neuroinflammation crisis, and I I, again, I've talked a lot a bit about this on the podcast and written a whole book about it called the Elder Mine solution is our brains are on fire. And our brains on fire lead to depression, anxiety, suicide, aggression, you know, societal division, Alzheimer's Parkinson's. I mean, the list goes on and on. Anything that affects the brain is about inflammation.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So these drugs may modulate that. It's very fascinating. So they're being studied for Alzheimer's and many other things. Now I I think the idea that we should just like fall in love with this drug and it's great for everybody and we should put it in the water. I don't think Tyna or anybody, I think, who is is smart about this thinks that.
Dr. Mark Hyman: But but for the select patient in a way given in a way that can can actually regulate some of these pathways, I'm I'm not so sure It should be thrown out. It's like any any tool. It's it's like any tool we have in medicine. It's for the right person at the right time. The right
Calley Means: person just to I'm just curious. Well,
Dr. Mark Hyman: that's that's a great question. Who is there?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Let me finish what I was trying to tell you guys. I started using this in patients, and I have only one who is using it for weight loss. Everybody else is on it for a different reason. So and I'm using it at a 5th of the starting dose compounded droplets. And when I started doing this, my colleagues all started who listened to my podcast all started also microdosing GLP ones in their clinic.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And we've all reported back to each other, and we're seeing phenomenal results in all different kinds of conditions that leads me to believe that we may actually be able to do away with a lot of the lifestyle pharmaceuticals that people are using. So people are on other drugs for life. Such as high blood pressure meds or statin drugs. These these peptides have been shown to heal heart tissue and to reverse heart failure. So I've got one patient on it for high blood pressure.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Tiny little dose, high blood pressure, blood pressure is down. I personally take it because I have psoriatic arthritis. And I have crippling pain from tip to toe. It doesn't matter how clean of a life I live. It doesn't matter how clean my fish tank is.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I menopause hit me. The brain fog was real, and the pain came with it. And I knew it was due to neuroinflammation. So tiny little doses mitigates My autoimmune conditions, like nothing I've ever used without any side effects. None of the people I'm using it on.
Dr. Tyna Moore: None of the people, none of the patients that my colleagues are using it on or having any side effects. You keep the dose low. The nausea, the vomiting, the terrible side effects, the muscle loss, That is all a dosing and management issue. And brand names start in a prefilled pen. I don't use them.
Dr. Tyna Moore: They're too high of a dose. We are mono dosing at high doses, monotherapy, a hormone. And that's why we're seeing these horrific side effects, which I completely agree with. I've listened to your argument on different podcasts, and I'm like, I totally agree with them. I totally agree with what's happening there.
Dr. Tyna Moore: But We wouldn't throw out thyroid if all the doctors were overdosing their patients on thyroid. It's a management and dosing issue on the doctor's part. And then how can playing our patients. Right?
Calley Means: Why why
Dr. Mark Hyman: is the pharma starting the dose so high? I mean, the injection first dose is point 5 milligrams and it goes to 1 and 2. You're talking about using point 1 or point 08. The storm, which is a 5th a 5th of that.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Tiny. Because they're dealing with severely metabolically busted people already. And the people I'm dealing with are doing all the things that are generally metabolically healthy.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Some immediate Americans, madam. What would you what would you do someone come in, it was, like, £350 who we just started my Or the
Calley Means: average American. So you
Dr. Tyna Moore: give them a leg up. I have a prescript a license to prescribe. So I prescribe things to give people a leg up. I do use Prozac as needed at very low doses. And the way that I have been taught by my mentor is when a patient comes in, and here's their pharmacological profile, and here's their lifestyle.
Dr. Tyna Moore: You lower this as much as humanly possible or get them off is the goal. The reason I became a naturopathic position in the state of Oregon. So I prescribe is to get people off drugs. And then you bring up their lifestyle.
Dr. Mark Hyman: To put them on and to take them
Dr. Tyna Moore: off. Right? You bring up their life style. Right? And so you hopefully get this as low as possible, but I'm not opposed to keeping people on tiny little doses.
Dr. Tyna Moore: This is not the first drug I'm microdosed. I microdosed Prozac in patients. I've microdosed statins. I microdosed all kinds of drugs to give them you get a different mechanism of action when you use things at tiny little dosages than when you macrodose them. Mark dosing a drug gives you a different pharmacologic impact on the body.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And do they work at that low dose for people? Yeah. What if they're for your patients who are not really doing it for weight issues. I understand.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Everybody lost weight.
Dr. Mark Hyman: But what about for people who are, like, £300, did you start with the same dose?
Dr. Tyna Moore: So I have one patient who is morbidly obese. He's well over 3 something pounds and can't move in so much pain. He can't move. He sleeps in a lazy boy, spends all day in a lazy boy, doesn't get up, doesn't move, cognitions off has had too many strokes. I don't even have him at the starting dose yet, and it's been months, and he is very happily, very slowly shedding the weight.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. The starting dose, the pharmacologic starting dose.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yes. So I've got him at a fraction of that, and he his cognition has improved. The cognitive impacts have been huge. I've seen it eradicate depression. I've seen it reverse PCOS.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I've seen people walk straight into fertility after decades of infertility. Issues from piece or just decades of PCOS. So and this is all at microdoses. I'm talking droplets.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So this compound, which our body makes, maybe is deficient because of why? Why is it because of epigenetic programming? Is it because of our microbiome changing? Because of toxins the environment.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I think all of it, you know, the mess of toxic soup we live in. I mean, we live in a toxic soup period. Epigenetically, like you said, mothers the the data around maternal diabetes and metabolic inflammation and the off spring. Is you do you know potting dress cats? Did you guys ever hear about potting dress cats?
Dr. Tyna Moore: So pottinger in the thirties took cats, and he fed that. He's a veterinarian. He fed them cooked meat and pasteurized milk.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: That's all he did was change it. And within 1 to 3 generations, they were completely infertile. Their intestines were inflamed and boggy. Their livers were enlarged and fatty infiltrate, and it took him multiple generations with optimal cat diet, which is raw milk and raw meat, multiple generations to reverse them back to a fertile healthy animal. Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: So my I'm fifty. I watch all of this Hyman. I've seen it. I remember when there was, like, one kid in school who truly had a glandular problem who was overweight. Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I've watched this.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Eric, on my class.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Hi. Yes. I watched this whole thing unfold. I've watched food change. I've been battling against it too for long, long time, but, we're in a pickle.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yeah. And I think we're I think I am actually a few generations into potting or at least one into the pottinger's cats. My parents, the boomers, had the convenience foods. Crisco Oil came into play, and here we are. And my
Dr. Mark Hyman: daughter margarine. That was what I lived in. I was a kid.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yeah. Me too. In wonder bread and below me, but my daughter's my daughter's 24 next week, and her generation is a mess. It's a mess.
Calley Means: Because of the pharmaceutical industrial complex and treating everything in silos.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I totally agree.
Calley Means: Yeah. But this is treating obesity asylum.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I'm not talking about treating obesity.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I just see a world in where it's not either or. There may be a role for using these drugs in in patients to help along with an intensive lifestyle intervention and a functional medicine approach to correct some of the problems that may have been driving the GLP-one efficiency and not have them on verb.
Calley Means: Let me give my high levels directing that and then go into, like, certain pay patient archetypes and cases. I'm really skeptical. And I think viewers and listeners just need to make up their own mind. I'm very skeptical that the billing of this drug is a miracle drug for all chronic conditions. There has never, by my account, in in American history, been a chronic disease pharmaceutical product that's lowered rates of the chronic disease.
Calley Means: It's ostensibly trying to treat more stents, more heart disease, more metformin, more diabetes, more SSRIs, more depression. You can go down
Dr. Mark Hyman: to list.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Not struck.
Dr. Mark Hyman: But because people don't change their life So Exactly. It's a moral hazard. Right.
Calley Means: I talk about my mom a lot. Right? My mom was on 5 different medications, right, when she was diagnosed with cancer. She would have certainly been on Ozempic. She had trouble losing the baby weight and and was never obese, but obese after she had me.
Calley Means: And, you know, she was on the satin on the metformin. And there's a choice a doctor has, right? They can follow your work. And when the person has an elevated waistline or has elevated cholesterol or has elevated blood sugar. They can open your book and talk about how they have to go on a path of curiosity and a path of metabolic health to get their biomarkers and get their underlying metabolic health more under control.
Calley Means: And that cannot be injected, and it cannot be pilled. And frankly, I would argue that it's very clear from the data and experience that putting the savior in a lifetime chronic disease treatment has been a total failure because inevitably it's and see.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I agree. In in a perfect world, we have a a healthy environment in the country where where we had all the defaults being healthy where there wasn't processed food or people were moving naturally. Where we had lower stress or we weren't, having being sleep deprived where we weren't exposed to the low to minimal toxins. I want that world.
Calley Means: Right.
Dr. Mark Hyman: A 100%. We don't live in that world. And I and I see and I see patients, for example, who who have had complications from conditions. And for for example, we're doing clearly hearts again, AI interpreted coronary angiograms. And we're seeing people with lots of plaque and dangerous plaque and risk plaque.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And those people I will put on medication. It's not the solution to someone who's younger who doesn't have a solution to prob problem to prevent it. But but there may be a time for for medications in people's lives that actually can be used in a way that helps reverse the problem.
Calley Means: And as I said at the beginning, I'm not concerned with that patient. I'm not concerned with that age case. I'm concerned with the average person I'm concerned with the average American who's overweight or obese. I'm concerned with the average American teen right now who's overweight or obese. I'm concerned with that person.
Calley Means: I'm not concerned with the person on the edge cases. Is this the treatment for obesity? And all you need to do is look at JP Morgan, their stock analysis for the Novo Nordic stock They project an increase in obesity over the coming 10 years. They project as as this drug is prescribed widely and and and approved and and and government funded, they assume that obesity is gonna go up. You just have to ask why that is.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Why is that?
Calley Means: I I one more quick thing. I and I think this is really helpful. Why why would they say? Because there's never been a chronic disease drug. And this is a drug in history that has lowered rates of the chronic diseases trying to treat.
Calley Means: It is a moral hazard. Obesity is not an Ozempic deficiency, Alzheimer's heart disease, and an Ozempic deficiency. The message of this drug, whether you do it a low dose or high dose quite frankly, because if you start at a low dose, you have to take it for life in order to maintain it.
Dr. Tyna Moore: No. You don't.
Calley Means: You absolutely have to take it for life unless it dramatically change your lifestyle habits in this case. I think we're
Dr. Mark Hyman: on the same page here because I don't think anybody believes that you can use a drug without lifestyle change. And sometimes people need a bridge. For example, some people need a, like, a leg up who are just so stuck. And I and I am humbled as a doctor because, you know, it's one thing to have, you know, a a a a fly be based on a a a really a a very pure idea of what we should be doing, but the reality is there are real people with real issues who struggle and it's and even with their best efforts, they can't succeed. And so that that's that's a problem I see.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And then maybe because of the things that are not within their control. In other words, there may be things that
Calley Means: are going on biologically with the drastic change in our microbiome and environmental toxins, which I think are the 2 biggest things going on. That that that make it hard for people to actually correct those things without some help. Mark, respect. You you you your books and your teachings have changed my life and where I am in this path. And I'd I just have to say, we need to be clear to the American people.
Calley Means: People listen to this. If they're facing metabolic dysfunction, try not eating ultra processed food. Try cutting that from your
Dr. Tyna Moore: Have you had a patient in front of you who's dealing with chronic mold or sers or severe trauma and adverse childhood events? And it doesn't work.
Calley Means: I wanna go through 2 patient archetypes. Okay. If you are the median American who is on, you know, a couple of chronic disease medications and overweight or slightly obese, right? Let's go through this. If you go on Ozempic at whatever dose, right?
Calley Means: It's only going to, work, and you can only go off of it if you radically change your lifestyle habits. So we're all agreeing
Dr. Mark Hyman: with that.
Calley Means: You can only go off of it.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So should should
Calley Means: unless you radically change Right. Wanna make sure we're all lining up. So so there's no point in really taking it unless you're gonna radically change your habits for life, not a crash course, not a jump start, but actually really have a almost a spiritual reset in your life to change your habits.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Agreed.
Calley Means: Okay. If you go off of it, if you do it and go off of it and don't change your habits, you're gonna gain the weight back. Correct. So if you're going if we need a massive and I'm talking for the median person listening, if we need a massive, almost revolutionist country, where we have to change our metabolic habits, whether we're taking the drug or not. Why not start with that?
Calley Means: Why do we need this drug? Is there any
Dr. Mark Hyman: is there any evidence I agree. I agree. If we if we have a society where all that's possible, great. We just don't.
Calley Means: What is the evidence that the drug helps if we're not changing or
Dr. Tyna Moore: It gives you the ability. Well, first of all
Dr. Mark Hyman: ability to change your health.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Lose 5 to 10% of your body weight and see what happens. You start moving more. You feel better. You have less pain. You're more inclined.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Most people that I'm seeing on it don't actually want to start changing things significantly until about the 2 month mark. And all of a sudden, they start talking about, Hey doc, What should I do for exercise? What should I be doing beyond walking? There the hedonic urge to eat the junk is gone.
Calley Means: It comes back when you go off of it, doesn't it?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Not always. It actually is having a regenerative impact. There is a long term regenerative impact and a healing impact from the peptides. And they we have the data on it. I'm not sure what data you're looking at, but the data I'm looking at is not showing exactly the same thing.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I would I would say Calley has pep just to understand pharmacology versus physiology. So someone has a thyroid dysfunction. They have a thyroid hormone. We give them thyroid Hyman for life. Now some people can get off it if you change a lot of things.
Dr. Mark Hyman: But And some people can't. Some people can't. You know, if you take a pharmacological substance, it's working in ways that are inhibiting blocking or or somehow interfering with normal physiology. Peptides are things that our body uses it to regulate its function. I personally use peptides for my own health.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I use peptides in my patients for all sorts of different things from tissue repair to hormonal support, to immune support to anxiety and brain health,
Dr. Tyna Moore: and
Dr. Mark Hyman: they're they're quite effective. And I don't I don't shy away from using those in the right patient in the right way. So as a class of compounds, they're they're different than pharmacologic compounds even though they're they've been co opted by the pharmaceutical industry. Now the FDA is trying to shut down the use of peptides because they're so effective. Right.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yes. And they're physiologic. So I I always think of something when I treat somebody, is this nature made or man made? Right? If it's nature made, I I tend to think that it's working with the body rather than against the body.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And the question is, you know, if you give something like vitamin d, which is nature made at massive doses, it's gonna cause a lot of harm. But if you give vitamin d to those who are deficient in it and a physiologic dose, it may actually help them function better. So I'm always kind of thinking about medicine in that perspective. I've worked, for example, with a a woman who's struggled for a long time for decades with weight. And she tried.
Dr. Mark Hyman: She tried. She knew what to do. You know, she'd been a victim of terrible trauma when she was younger. She, you know, saw her mother literally stabbed to death in front of her by her stepfather. She was kidnapped in trying to have a car.
Dr. Mark Hyman: She was raised by an abusive aunt. I mean, I I saw the amount of trauma she had, and she pulled herself up by her bootstraps, and she was very successful. But she struggled with her weight around around this is what we call adverse childhood events. And and for her, you know, I think she tried this medication, and it really helped her to kinda get back to a level where she could get off that 50, 60, £7, £80 a chain to get off. And so, you know, it's it's it's humbling as a doctor to know you know, when when you can't get people to do the right thing.
Dr. Mark Hyman: For some reason, these are their their their their trauma, whether it's their emotional state, whether it's their brain functioning or their brain inflammation, sometimes these compounds can be helpful. So I I kinda like to kind of not just do all good, all bad. I think we all agree that the way that the pharma suitable industry is doing this is bad. Like, I don't think any of us have any argument about that. I don't think any of us have an argument that that, you know, farmers shouldn't be driving all the research.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It shouldn't be driving all the the the Mark that should be driving all the co opting of of the research institutions, the professional associations, physicians, promoting it. You know, the government at lobbyists, you know, I mean, you know, they're trying to get approved for Medicare. I'm like, well, gee, you know, for Medicare Mark D, which drug benefit. The total benefit for all everybody and all drugs in all America is a 145,000,000,000. If just the obese people in Medicare got this, it would be think 267,000,000,000, which is, you know, more than all the rest of the drug benefit put together.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So that is not a solution. We're working, for example, in Washington, trying to get food as medicine covered. We're gonna get there, but it's a decade long fight. In the meantime, we're heading into some crazy, period of of metabolic disaster in America that we need we need to do something. So I would like to kinda go back to Tyna and talk to Tyna about her approach with her patients because I I I I was to be so honest.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I was pretty skeptical. I was like, I don't know. I think I've prescribed it maybe 1 or 2 times in very select patients who really had to get the weight off. They were had Alzheimer's or they had something really serious. And I and I used it very carefully.
Dr. Mark Hyman: But but I really had a a very similar perspective to you, Calley, that I this is something that we should we should really not be using that lifestyle works better that that, you know, that if you if you look, for example, the studies of gastric bypass, which is the other treatment, which is, by the way, far cheaper if you if you're if you're paying retail for these things, if you give someone a gastric bypass and then you have someone eat the same diet as if they had a gastric bypass, there was no different in the outcomes. So as to paraphrase Bill Clinton, it's the food stupid. Right? And and and I was like, wait a minute. Is this if people just did a study and they hadn't I've never done this study because I looked at I see if there was a study done.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Was there a study comparing diet aggressive dietary intervention? The same diet people will eat on a GLP 1 agonist with the GLP 1 agonist and looked at all these effects. Would neuroinflammation go down with fatty liver improve, with heart failure, reverse? I think it was I I don't I don't know that the the the how the study worked, but I I had a patient like this. She was sixty six years old.
Dr. Mark Hyman: She had heart failure, liver, fatty liver, she had diabetes, she had all these problems. We didn't use this impact. We just used food, and she was off all her medications in 3 months. She lost £43 in 3 months, a £160 in a year, and she got reversal of all these inflammatory things. So was would she been helped even more with those impact?
Dr. Mark Hyman: I don't know. So this is a question I have, and I I kinda want Tyna to you to talk talk through how you use this with your patients because it's it's a very different approach than than I think we're talking about what the what's happening wide scale in the country. It's like You give us go to the doctor. You give Ozempic. Now you can buy online.
Dr. Mark Hyman: You can go to Ozempic, like, websites, and they talk to you for 5 minutes. They give you the drug, and it's like a it's like a, like, a prescription mail that I think should be illegal. But I I think I'm in the right patient in the right way. Tell us what you're what you're seeing.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Well, first of all, I don't use anything in isolation. So The foundations are always the foundations. Right? Diet, lifestyle, exercise, sun. All of those are always critical.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Sometimes people aren't ready to implement all of those things, and it's a quite a bit overwhelming as you've seen with your patients. You gotta start with one thing. I also never use peptides in isolation. I I like you use a multitude of them with patients. And I also usually bring in some bio identical hormone replacement as needed.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Depending on their age and their condition. And so this is just about one tool in a comprehensive tool belt. And when done that way, I found that you can keep the dose significantly low. And then I cycle it. So just like a hormone
Dr. Mark Hyman: So not on it for life No. On and off.
Dr. Tyna Moore: On and off, just like I do a hormone. So that off period may be 1 week out of the month. It may be a month out of every quarter. It may be go off for a period and go back on when you need it. And
Dr. Mark Hyman: do they gain the weight back when they do that?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Or Not if they're metabolically optimized. So I really think that peptides in general were best in folks who are metabolically optimized. So I'm not defending this for strictly weight loss. I'm using it as an adjunctive tool in a comprehensive toolbox. To get people that leg up so that they have the energy.
Dr. Tyna Moore: They start to drop the weight. They start to do all the things, or they do better at doing all things. Right? It might be the patient is doing all the things, but they've got a crazy sugar addiction. Or who knows?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Who knows what it is? Again, mold exposure, Lyme disease could be a myriad of things that's keeping their glucose elevated. They are doing everything perfectly, and their blood sugar is still elevated. Seen patients like that. You're like, how is this?
Dr. Tyna Moore: How are we still dealing with this elevated hemoglobin? See, you're lean. You're fit. You're doing everything right. You're eating like a saint, a touch.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Just a little touch of something. I don't it's not always a GLP 1, but there's something that they need. And when we give that, we give what the body needs. It responds in favor. And they improve.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yeah. And I'd like to say most women I know on bioidentical hormone replacement would tell you we don't mind taking for the rest of our lives. I don't plan on getting off thyroid. I have no desire to get off thyroid. I have no plan of getting off of my estrogen.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I I have no desire to.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Well, let's let's talk about this because I think I think what's what's what's in the literature and I and concerns me is some of the side effects. Right? Think, Kyle, maybe that's what you're gonna about to say. So I hear you on
Calley Means: the metabolically optimized person, but for somebody, like, more than 50% of American adults, by some measures up 60% have pre diabetes. I think 80% or so don't know it. There's Yeah. Most people listening are, you know, have indicators of metabolic dysfunction. Like, generically, if it's, if it's better for metabolically functional people, which is a very small percentage of the country, what what's the what's the high level
Dr. Mark Hyman: Oh, no. I bet that you were saying was peptides work better in medigot. Yeah. But but, like, yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Right. But they work best when you're in the you can keep the dosage low when folks are generally healthy. Now do
Dr. Mark Hyman: you Hyman insulin? If someone's very insulin resistant and type 2 diabetic, they need a lot of insulin to lower their blood sugar. But if someone's insulin sensitive. They need a tiny bit of insulin, right, if they're
Calley Means: So so somebody that is metabolic is functional will need a good deal more?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Not necessarily. It depends on when they start implementing lifestyle changes. Some people need some help getting there. And the other piece is that I don't think people need to be on them for life at high I certainly don't think people need to be high the way that they're being dosed. I think that was just the way the studies were ran.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Mhmm. We're also dealing with a population when we're talking about diabetes and obesity who are already prone to pancreatitis. They're already prone to thyroid cancer. They're already prone to gastroparesis. I mean, the number one risk factor for gastroparesis is type 2 diabetes.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And the number one risk factor for thyroid cancer generally is diabetes and obesity. So you have two times the risk. So I'm talking about intervention because these peptides actually they don't act as just a band aid, Kelly. They heal your metabolism. They heal your pancreas.
Dr. Tyna Moore: They heal your liver. They heal your metabolism.
Dr. Mark Hyman: That's an interesting concept because, like, for example, I use BP 157 when I have, like, a and I work out and I get a little strained muscle. I just pop it in there, and it's better. So it regenerates tissue or repairs tissue. I had a a guy who was in the lead athlete and he pulled a muscle in his calf and he couldn't do all the things he had to do. I just popped a pet head in there.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Someone was Tasselbo. I popped a BP 157 GHK peptide in there, and I did maybe a couple of times, and it resolved the problem. Now that that I think GLP 1 agonist may be a little bit different. I don't know. But they they they do have a regenerative capacity.
Dr. Mark Hyman: That's what these peptides are meant to do in the They're different than drugs. And and and I think that the pharmaceutical approach is is is concerning to me because it doesn't include a holistic approach. You and I do that, obviously. And there are some doctors around the country who are focused on that, but most of the people getting these drugs are just getting them True. And then then they have some significant issues.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So at the dose that we're seeing that that people are getting, there's very high rates of nausea. Very high rates of diarrhea constipation, like 20, 25, 5, 67% on nausea. It tends to go away after a little bit, but it still has a problem. And 80% discontinued them after, I think, a couple of years or year 2, which is an interesting phenomena whether it's cost or side effects or maybe, I don't know what. And and then there's the risk of some of these other issues.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Now the the the absolute number is small because these are rare conditions. But, you know, when you look at the data, published data, there's 400 and percent increase risk in bowel obstruction, a 900% increase risk in pancreatitis. They seem not that trivial. And if you scale it out on the population, It's it's in in in the incidence of this. It might be if if, you know, I don't know, 100,000,000 people are taking, it might be 500,000 people with it, which is not trivial.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So How do you how do you think about these side effects? How do you how do you see these being different in the patients that use the microdosing as you call micro I wouldn't call micro called low dose because Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's low dose.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. Micro dose is like micro. But but low dose, I think you're using low dose, which is, I think, an interesting concept And and by the way, people, you cannot get low dose through the drug companies.
Dr. Tyna Moore: No. The brand name can't.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Compounding pharmacies, and we're gonna talk about that and the challenge with that. But there's a way to get it and do it, but it's tricky and you need to be with the right practitioner. But but given given these side effects, so you talk about what you think about these. Are they are they as bad as we think? You know, are they just in the people on high doses?
Dr. Mark Hyman: You know, do you see this in the population who are using smaller doses as you're talking about?
Dr. Tyna Moore: I'm not seeing it in any of my patients. The study that you're referencing, you're right. It was a small. I mean, I think it was, like, 7 out 600 and something got the ball obstruction.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Right.
Dr. Tyna Moore: You know, seven people, which looks terrible as a hazard ratio. But
Dr. Mark Hyman: Right.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And when you scale it out, yes, I agree, but I think we're talking management and dosing being the problem. And when you overdose somebody, on a peptide or anything. I mean, when I take too much BPC 157, I I swell up. Mhmm. And I get swollen throughout my body.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I get edema. So Overdosing somebody on a GLP 1 is, I think, is what's happening. And then we're already we're taking already brittle. They're metabolically brittle. Their vagus nerve is damaged already.
Dr. Tyna Moore: We're their muscle tissue was already pathologic and full of fatty infiltrate. And then we're slamming them.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Waggle rib eye. Waggle rib eye.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yeah. And then we're slamming them with monotherapy, high dose GOP ones. I think it's a disaster.
Calley Means: So for listeners, if they listen to this and go to their doctor and get the prescription of a they're not saying often that is an overdose. It's actually very dangerous. So
Dr. Tyna Moore: I don't think it's very dangerous, I think, in the wrong person, it could be.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. It it tends to have more side effects. Yes.
Dr. Tyna Moore: You're gonna get more side effects.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's not.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And and the the gastroparesis is not permanent regardless of what the click bait headlines are telling us. Meaning,
Dr. Mark Hyman: meaning, meaning your stomach's kind of stops working. If you stop the drug, it'll come back to Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It comes back online. The thyroid cancer is correlative at best.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yes. We're in rats. Right.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's been in rats. That would those that black box warning is in rats that were given, like
Dr. Mark Hyman: Cancer that doesn't even make sure.
Calley Means: You're saying you're downplaying that, black box warning?
Dr. Tyna Moore: No. It's in rats.
Calley Means: But were you saying
Dr. Tyna Moore: that's not what you're worried about? There's literally no human cases showing positive.
Calley Means: I will just say that the FDA, which is 75% fund pharma, which is basically a subsidiary of pharma for them to put it take the step of putting a black box warning means there's pretty scary data in my opinion on the thyroid cancer.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Was gonna finish. They took the rat and they gave him a hundred times the human dose, and they got a very rare form of medullary thyroid cancer. That rat developed spontaneously, and the control group also got a high rate of medullary thyroid cancer. But you're saying no. I'm talking about what the Cleveland Clinic is showing for the they say,
Calley Means: just for listeners, should they be concerned about thyroid issues, hormonal issues leading up to thyroid cancer?
Dr. Tyna Moore: They should talk to their doctor. And if they have of medullary thyroid cancer in their family, they should absolutely that's a doctor patient relationship discussion. I'm not defending Ozempic, and I'm not defending it at high doses for weight loss. I'm talking about nuance. We're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I think that's that's an important point, Tyna. I think we'd have to do it in the right way in the right context for the right patient. I always say, you know, there's a Buddhist concept called the right medicine. What is the right medicine for this person? Is it a mother if they're left fifty years old living with their mother that's maybe driving them crazy or or, you know, or do they need exercise or what do they need the right have a nutrient they're deficient in, or or do they need to have some support for their metabolism?
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I think, you know, it's it's this conversation is hard because it we're we're threading a very tight needle. Here. Yeah. Which is at scale in the population, the way it's being done now, I think, is problematic. But is is there another alternative to think about this that we can basically encourage people to think about that includes an aggressive lifestyle intervention with some peptide support, which I use across many, many other peptides.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I use many peptides in my practice for just general therapeutic treatments that that support the body's own endogenous functioning, which is what I love about peptides. I love things that nature made. They're not not not that or god made. Nothing man made because they tend to be more problematic. That doesn't mean that these don't have side effects when you use them in the hugest.
Dr. Mark Hyman: This looks like vitamin d. Right? So One of the things that that also is a problem is is muscle loss. And there's a lot of the data that is very clear on this. There's been DEXA scans in some of the studies showing significant weight loss.
Dr. Mark Hyman: But but the truth is if you just lose weight without exercising any protein, you're gonna have the same result.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's the same percentage on a low calorie diet.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Right. So if you if you calorie strict and you don't eat protein and you don't drink train, you are going to lose muscle and you'll lose muscle and fat at about 50% each And when you gain the weight back, you gain back all fat. And so you script your metabolism if you do the weight cycling. And which is which is a real problem. So how do you how do you, address that some of the concerns.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Because aside from the the protein increased needs, when people are on these drugs, they tend to perhaps suppress appetite. They don't wanna eat as much protein, and they don't want to eat as much food. And then they may be even at risk for nutrient deficiencies. So how do you how do you deal with with those kinds of kinds of issues?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Well, first off, I think that's a dosing issue. If you pull back the dosage low enough, people have an appetite, and they continue to eat regularly. And interestingly, I've got people eating, claiming to eat the same amount of calories and still having visceral fat loss, and they're tracking themselves. So there's something changing there. We have data to show that it decreases visceral fat while maintaining and actually inducing muscle protein synthesis.
Dr. Tyna Moore: GLP-one's induced muscle protein synthesis through various signaling pathways and through perfusion, blood perfusion, and delivery of amino acids. It's folks going on a severely calorically restricted diet that is causing the muscle loss. The doctors are cranking the dose too high too fast. They're being ramped up way too fast. It's crushing their appetite.
Dr. Tyna Moore: They're going into an anorex state, and they are indeed losing everything. And just like you said, they're gonna end up way worse off at the end of this terrible journey. And so I don't disagree with that. I always say that strength training is non negotiable, and I've said that for decades. Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Strength training is non negotiable, period. If you wanna live a long, healthy life and be metabolic optimized and survive the zombie apocalypse. You have the strength. Right? It really is.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And so we can blame the doctors. We can blame the far dis pharmaceutical industry, but I'm talking to the patient because you and I both know that compliance is an issue with patients, and they don't always do what we want them to do. And they don't always do what they we need them to do. So my patients understand the prescription ends if you don't strength train.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I will pull this out. Like, we will no longer be dispensing this. So strength training, optimizing.
Dr. Mark Hyman: They need to have their Fitbit of their Apple Watch or their ordering data pump to the directly to you as you can see.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Well, I can tell by touching them. I'm a chiropractor. I can tell by their muscle integrity just by putting my hands on them whether they're, you know, for the good good musculature or fatty flat muscle. It's not
Dr. Mark Hyman: a bad idea. Right? It's not a bad idea to support people and and have them track and be accountable as we're doing this because,
Dr. Tyna Moore: you know, that's helpful.
Calley Means: Yeah. Sounds like we're all in agreement. And I just wanna, like, tailor, like, the person I have in my head is the median American who is on the fence about Ozempic, who's hearing the PR, that this should be the, you know, standard of care for somebody that's overweight or obese. And I want to be clear kind of what we're all agreeing on here. Which is that Ozempic at the recommended dose at the dose you would get from your doctor.
Calley Means: If you go get it, is essentially an injectable crash diet.
Dr. Tyna Moore: That's not all it is. There's a ton of regeneration and healing happening from
Dr. Mark Hyman: the peptide.
Dr. Tyna Moore: That's right.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I think it's important to to talk about the what we call pleiotropic effects in medicine, which is a multiple kinds of effect on the body from one compound that's in the body?
Calley Means: Well, if we're gonna talk about the interconnectedness of the body, you know, I think we should look at the 80% of people you know, having serious side effects and the you mentioned the mental health, but the data is pronounced impact and mental health issues.
Dr. Tyna Moore: That's not correct.
Calley Means: Well, there's an AU investigation, into suicidal ideation.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And they came back and said it was not an issue.
Calley Means: They have not. They have not. There was a serious investigation going on in you that is not resolved. It impacts. It it the drug, tell me if this is the drug is basically got dysfunction.
Calley Means: It messes with our gut where 95 percent of our serotonin is made. If we're gonna talk about It
Dr. Tyna Moore: actually shifts your microbiome into a favorable microbiome and and out of a path We're gonna
Calley Means: talk about the interconnectivity of the body and the interconnectivity of this drug. I think we would all agree there's much more we don't understand about how this drug impacts the myriad of metabolic, dynamics going on.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I understand. Mixed data. Right? I think, you know, there's some data that show that there's a study looking at antidepressant effects of GLP 1 receptor agonist was a meta analysis with 2000 people, 5 randomized trials, one perspective court study, and it was about 24 to 60 weeks. And they found that actually it reduced depression in adults and and and and, in both adults and adults would type that So there's also studies that show that maybe it's not.
Calley Means: So I've got a I've got a question. So this drug, we're saying it's a miracle drug that makes you not wanna eat that makes you not wanna gamble, that makes you not wanna have sex in some cases those reports of. It basically decreases, it seems like desires. So are you worried that there's an impact that the drug has on our dopamine or serotonin
Dr. Tyna Moore: It actually improves dopamine signaling.
Calley Means: By making us not want to engage in the activities that bring us joy?
Dr. Tyna Moore: No. It it impacts the HPA axis and imparts a dopamine allergic effect.
Calley Means: So you're saying flatly that a drug
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's not a drug. It's a peptide, and they're overdosing people on it. And that's why they're having terrible side effects. And also when people lose a tremendous amount too fast. They get depressed and suicidal.
Calley Means: So you're not concerned about unknown impacts to our dopamine or serotonin from a drug that, by all reports, makes us wanna do less of the things that bring us joy.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Just eating. I don't
Calley Means: know if it no. No. There's studies coming out.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I'm not seeing any appetite suppression.
Calley Means: It's a being used as a gambling, cessation, and an alcohol susations. That's good, though.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yeah. It does, but it's really not famous.
Calley Means: I don't want to do almost everything. That's what the drug is. Maybe it may be changing. I'm just saying that doesn't indicate
Dr. Mark Hyman: some hearing And, well, there's an interesting conversation here about dopamine because I think we have dysregulated dopamine, and there's and I do genetic testing with my patients, and we see polymorphisms or variations in with DRDopamine receptors, the DRD 2 receptors, which affect pleasure. So Some people may need a lot of substance, whether it's alcohol or sugar or or gambling to actually feel pleasure. And then and and so there are people who are at risk for increased obesity that's based on this sort of low hedonic, drive to to to pleasure. And I I think the question is, do these drugs modify that in some way? Do they may actually not do it in a bad way, but maybe they do it in a good way?
Dr. Mark Hyman: Because I think if if it's a there's something that can actually help people reduce their addiction and reduce that that drive and actually have pleasure from things that are just things that we all get pleasure from. Would be better.
Calley Means: Well, just I'm just trying to use common sense here. Right? I'm not saying it's a bad thing that people are eating a little bit less. The gambling less, engaging alcohol less, engaging drug use less. But if this drug is basically across the board, making people wanna do less of things, that to me demonstrates potential burns, unknown concerns with impacts.
Calley Means: There's a lot of levels. I I was
Dr. Mark Hyman: a lot
Calley Means: of serious concern.
Dr. Mark Hyman: My joke always is that there's a study in the New England Journal years ago that said we should start to use drugs as soon as they come out before the side effects develop.
Calley Means: So we don't we don't have it
Dr. Mark Hyman: in 5, 10, 15 years. We really don't.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Well, we have 20 years of data on GLP ones. Just not some toxetide and tirzepatide. And we weren't hearing all of this, these huge mainstream media headlines before that. With eczentatide that's been around for 20 years and loracolotide. And Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I mean, the the there's mixed data on the the the suicide thing, and somebody's population data. The clinical trials don't show that. There's big cohort studies of 240,000 people, 1,600,000 patients, with diabetes prescribed Ozempic 250,401,000 in Wagobi, and there's a lower incidence of of suicidal thoughts and patients. And so I think, you know, I don't think we know. We just have to keep tracking it.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I I think you're right. It's it's good to be concerned, and we do need to do post market surveillance in of what's going on with these drugs and how they impact people's health. But but that's sort of, you know, like, I I'm sitting here honestly, like, kind of in the middle and also confused because part of me is like, god, wouldn't it be great to have a leg up? Cause I've been treating people that'll be city and overweight issues. For 30 years, and it's tough.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's really tough for them. They really struggle. They wanted the right thing and they're highly motivated patients, and it's still tough. And so I wonder, you know, this is not a miracle drug. I don't think Tyna would say it's a miracle drug.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I I think, you know, like, any compound has a role. And and so is there a role? How do we use it? Does it make sense to actually think about this differently from from how the traditional pharmacological medical approaches is is doing something. And and and doing just not dismiss at wholesale as a as a as a part of a overall solution.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So I think, you know, in the perfect world, we'd totally fix our food system. We would get rid of all the drug junk. I mean, I had this crazy idea that if we actually Gabe Ozempic, everybody's overweight. All of a sudden, people stop eating junk food, and the industry would collapse, and everything may be great. In fact, the the CEO, the CEO of Novo Nordisk, who makes Ozempic getting calls from people in the fast food and junk food industry really concerned about this.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yep. Donald is concerned about this because it's cutting into their stomach share. We call it stomach share. Which I think is a good thing.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yeah. The CEO of Chisits, the fact that there is a CEO of Chisits cracks me out, but the CEO of Chisits said we will keep an eye on this. And they're actually you know, doing a detour and coming up with potentially supplements to offset their snack sales because they're down. The joint replacement companies are concerned. Dialysis clinic companies are concerned.
Dr. Tyna Moore: You know, there's a lot of That's
Dr. Mark Hyman: a good thing.
Dr. Tyna Moore: A lot of big companies that are concerned about this as well. So I feel like and here's here's just a total you know, out in left field. I actually think big pharma is concerned. I think the big pharma companies who don't hold a patent on a GLP 1 agonists are very concerned because they happen to be the ones who hold the patents on the popular statin drugs and blood pressure drugs that every American ends up on. For life.
Dr. Tyna Moore: So I really wonder if big pharma isn't actually, you know, depend you know, war are the big pharma companies. I don't know. Speculating, but I've been they're
Calley Means: they're they're thrilled because comorbidities are gonna go up. Culmerbidities are gonna go up.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Are they, though?
Calley Means: Yeah. Because because If you do it right, but if we do it how we're doing
Dr. Mark Hyman: it now, but we do it right.
Calley Means: This is why it's 0 sum and why it's so important. Combinators are gonna go up because that happens literally with every, proxies drug in the history of modern America. There there would be literally the first to not be correlated with increased, chronic disease. Here's why. Because if you are say and it and I'm I'm wanna understand where you're because you're saying it's a good thing.
Calley Means: It seems like that the standard of care that the high dose is actually gonna lead to a lot reduction in comorbidities, that's the track we're on. We're on the track with a very high dose, being, open season for the majority of the American people. And if the standard of care, when a child is overweight, is to prescribe them, distract, and not talk to them about your books. Right. But that but but but but but we're
Dr. Tyna Moore: we're not interjectory. We're saying
Calley Means: that we're saying that Homer Bridge is gonna go down at scale as this drug widely prescribed. That's what we're on the verge of doing. I think we're giving doctors
Dr. Tyna Moore: a little less credit than they deserve. I'm I'm
Calley Means: Well, we might disagree on that.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I'm not a f well, purposely did not become an MD because I wouldn't do it. I purposely became an naturopathic doctor because I didn't actually I
Dr. Mark Hyman: wanted to go to naturopathic school.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I didn't go I wasn't gonna go work for the evil empire. So from the get go. So I have been watching every single webinar piece of information that every single medical platform is put out, medscape, every single one.
Dr. Mark Hyman: On on this topic.
Dr. Tyna Moore: On this topic. I have been doing nothing but consuming information about this. And in every case, the doctors, the obesity doctors, obesity specialists, meanwhile, they all talk. Especially, I watch a whole one on childhood obesity. And they were like, we don't wanna be injecting children.
Dr. Tyna Moore: We can talk about children exercising more and children eating better and children doing all the things. Really, the issue is their parents. Getting their parents.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Schools. It's the it's the whole environment.
Calley Means: Parents aren't trying to poison their children.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Actually, most children who suffer from obesity have obese parents. Okay.
Calley Means: So we have a situation where
Dr. Tyna Moore: I wasn't finished. Sorry. Go ahead. In all of these webinars, they specifically double down on lifestyle. Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: They specifically double down on lifestyle. And I'm not bought out by Big Pharma. Not a fan of the allopathic medical community, but I have been watching all everything from all sides that I can get my hands on to see where this nuance conversation is. And in every case, they are talking that we have to be implementing lifestyle strategies for adults and children. And the other part of the conversation
Dr. Mark Hyman: that But it's true to me, but there is no incentive to do that.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I understand that.
Calley Means: Can I can
Dr. Mark Hyman: I yeah? Can I if there were I agree with you, it would be amazing? Please, I'll start with that.
Dr. Tyna Moore: But the doctors are saying it. At least they're trying.
Calley Means: They don't look at what they say. Look at what they do.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And They they don't they're not they're not a system that allows them to do it. Every doctor I know would want their patient to size and eat more and do MVP less and do better.
Calley Means: Oh, yeah. I I've talked to, you know, Harvard obesity doctors off the record where they said they didn't get into this see kids be obese, but also that they would be laid off and their entire department wouldn't be laid off if they don't have more obese children. And they do understand those incentives. Every obesity doctor
Dr. Mark Hyman: I think they'd be happy to be out of a job for that. They do some mindset.
Calley Means: But but but but but a person at an obesity clinic who has payroll who has loans underwritten on their new center that requires more children to be obese. Let let me let me just let me back up and let me let me back.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I I would I would, yeah, push back a little bit on doctors kind of being evil in that way. The the the
Calley Means: I I think they're stuck. I I don't think they I don't think they got into this for kids to be obese, but they it is just a statement of economic fact that they need more obese children in order to have a job.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. Maybe. But but I think I think if you if you talk to most physicians who are dealing with this, they would love to sort of magically accept their fingers and have some place to send their patients to an intensive immersive lifestyle change program. I know that's true.
Calley Means: Okay.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And there's and we were I when I was in Washington in 2008 and 9 during during the Obamacare, development of the legislation, I was really working hard to insert in the legislation, something called the TakeBacker Health Act, where we basically got the government to pay for intensive lifestyle change with a multi disciplinary team over a long period of time to create sustained change because we know how to change behavior. And and when you're talking about behavior change, but we don't have any mechanism in our health care system to support behavior change. And that that's really the problem. We don't pay for it. We don't incentivize it.
Dr. Mark Hyman: We don't have it. No one knows how to do it. I mean, I met with Kathleen Sebelius who was the head of health and human services at the Hyman I propose this idea to her during this time. She's this is a great idea, but who's gonna know how to do it? Because doctors aren't trained to do it.
Dr. Mark Hyman: They don't know how to do it. They know anything about it. I'm like, you're right. But let me tell you something. When somebody invented angioplasty, you didn't and you and you reimbursed it.
Dr. Mark Hyman: You didn't have to worry if they were gonna figure out how to do it. If you paid them $10,000,
Calley Means: They'd learn.
Dr. Mark Hyman: They'd freaking learn how to do that. And I think I think we're in the same situation. It's all about perverse financial incentives.
Calley Means: Yeah. Let let me just double click on that because I think obviously, doctors get in this flight reason. I I really do think they're stuck, but the raw economic fact is that there's been no more profitable in in the history of modern American capitalism than a sick child. A sick child is the most profitable entity in the world. Because that child is not learning metabolic healthy habits, and they're continuing to rack up comorbidities.
Calley Means: So imagine a high school, right?
Dr. Mark Hyman: Term, there'll be
Calley Means: Imagine high school. Well, but they're not gonna start it. Maybe they're gonna
Dr. Mark Hyman: start profitable.
Calley Means: So imagine a high school right now. You've had a doubling of prescriptions for SSRI stands at Metformin among high schoolers, doubling in less than the the past decade. So those drugs are being prescribed like candy. You have, diabetes and prediabetes epidemic. You have a high cholesterol epidemic.
Calley Means: You have a depression epidemic. You have a high blood pressure epidemic, and you have an obesity epidemic in high schools. And those kids are the most profitable in America, because if you can get to them and say that the high cholesterol is a statin deficiency and the high blood sugars on that form of deficiency and the obesity is an Ozempic deficiency, they're not learning metabolic hap healthy habits. It's about the money. Okay.
Calley Means: So are doctors evil people? No. Are they complicit in this dynamic knowingly? Absolutely. That is a profitable.
Calley Means: If you take that kid, if you take a twelve year old, and I wanna talk to every parent listening right now, it is open season. Very soon on your twelve year old to give the most epic. You're gonna be pushed. You're gonna be shoved studies down your face. You're gonna be saying your anti science if you don't give you're gonna
Dr. Mark Hyman: be you're gonna be you're gonna have to sign.
Calley Means: You're gonna have
Dr. Mark Hyman: to sign. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're gonna pressure you
Calley Means: to say you're going into the American Academy of Pediatric gonna pressure you to jab your twelve year old. That is going
Dr. Mark Hyman: out and attend the overseas. Is because doctors are are stuck in a system It's like a black box. And what they don't realize is that most of their education is pharmaceutical driven. I I I was sitting on a trail of one skin at a resort. And and this woman was next to me.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So what do you do? I'm in I'm in, you know, I'm in, you know, pharmaceutical education. I'm like, what do you do? She's like, why we put on continuing medical education conferences for doctors. So, you know, the the the really is a corruption of our medical education system.
Dr. Mark Hyman: My daughter's in medical school now. I see it. There's a corruption, the research infrastructure, and how it's done. And we don't fund the right types of research to support life's So we have a we have a very screwed up system, and doctors don't necessarily know they're in. It's like the matrix.
Calley Means: What do you what do you think is gonna have it for a twelve year old if they're dozempic and not given lifestyle intervention. They can ask their they don't, though. Alright. Let's talk about both sides. So should that marginal twelve year old who's is on the borderline of obese do you think are they gonna embark on a path of metabolic health and curiosity?
Calley Means: Are they gonna continue to eat ultra processed food continue to poison their cells, even if it's 80% less.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Well, that's the problem.
Calley Means: I mean, that's the problem with the question. I think I think I think even we I think though
Dr. Mark Hyman: what Tyna was saying before is really if you link the prescription of these drugs to certain behaviors and track them,
Calley Means: but that's a That's a that's a monumental cultural change that would have violent opposition because the second as a standard of care for medicine you start talking to a kid. Remember, if that kid is the most profitable entity in America being sick. So there's gonna be huge violent position to instead of prescribing them as statin and Ozempic to give them the blood sugar solution or one of your books and talk to them about exercise and incentivize them to eat a healthy diet. That would immediately take millions of children off the chronic disease treadmill that's fueling the largest and the fastest growing industry in the country. I don't know.
Calley Means: I'm I'm not
Dr. Mark Hyman: sure I'm not sure I agree, dude, because I I said to the CEO of Cleveland Clinic once. I said what we're at, at the World Economic Forum, Toby, and I said, listen, Toby. And I was kinda joking. I said, how would you like me to empty out half your hospitals? And cut your bypasses and angioplasty in half.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Anything that would be a great idea. I said, but what you're making, $8,000,000,000 a year, what if you're making 4,000,000,000 is we'll figure it out. Figure out what the right thing to do is. So not everybody obviously is like that in medicine, but I I do think that that that that that people in medicine generally wanna do the right thing. And they don't if if they could, like, get rid of all of these kids, I I think they would do it.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Now there are businesses in private equity and medicine now. I mean, it's is it? Then why isn't American Kanye pediatric talking about diet? Why? Because they're funded by pharma in the food industry.
Dr. Mark Hyman: That's why.
Calley Means: Why isn't why why is the, you know, why isn't American diabetes association
Dr. Mark Hyman: same reason. Same reason.
Calley Means: But but but these these those are doctors.
Dr. Mark Hyman: No. They're not. They're the professional associations.
Calley Means: Who who said the standard of care that
Dr. Mark Hyman: Who said the standard of care true, but but doctors aren't necessarily behind it. Why are doctors speaking up? Some are. Some are.
Calley Means: You are. I mean, there's a few.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I've been in this a long time, and it's really challenging. It's really it it it's easier said than done because you could put all of these perfect world scenarios in front of a twelve year old. And if they're parents are not gonna comply with it. That kid's stuck. That kid's stuck in that household having to deal with what's made for dinner for them by their mom and dad.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And most cases of childhood obesity are coming or stemming from obese parents. So you're saying that we have overhaul that we have to do. That is so much more nuanced than just changing public policy. I'm gonna
Dr. Mark Hyman: work with Tyna for a minute on this because I think I I think what you're doing is so unique, and I think we can learn from it because you're not practicing a metabolic medicine in the same way that most endocrinologists are or doctors are who prescribing Ozempic or similar drugs. And you're you're you're including a very different set of things that you look at that you treat and that you manage, and you don't you're not finding the same complications, side effects, a weight regain, muscle loss, stomach issues, gastroparesis, nausea, vomiting, you found a way through to do this in a way in a in a in a very different way that I think is worth talking about because you know, we all agree that the traditional pharmacologic approach is a bad idea. And I agree getting a twelve year old Ozempic and just sitting on their way for the rest of your life is a bad idea. What is the right idea? Like, if if we can create a, you know, blue ocean or and say, okay, what would be the perfect use of these peptides in the world?
Dr. Mark Hyman: To deal with a a really serious crisis that we all agree is happening, which is a metabolic crisis. So in in in a real world scenario, in a perfect world with a blue ocean, How how would we create a 360 treatment approach which you've done to help people regain their metabolic health when they're metabolically busted, which is anywhere arguably between 42 93% of Americans.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I always start by giving them something to add and not something to take away. I don't take away the ultra refined carbohydrates right off the bat. People will fight.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Damn. You're nice. I wanna get involved.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Well, they will fight for their addiction. People will argue for their dishes.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I know.
Dr. Tyna Moore: They tried to tax soda in New York and people flipped out and write it. People will not let go over their addictions. But if you can get them to acclimate to a new normal and you can get them to stack some wins and get some little dopamine hits on their own, you start to see change. So I get people walking. I get people increasing their protein.
Dr. Tyna Moore: When you increase your protein, you become less hungry. You stop eating as much garbage. It's a slow incremental step up. When they start to feel stronger and their joints still feel more stable, we start to get them strength training. I do start to educate them about the evils of ultra refined carbohydrates.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I educate. It's tattooed on my wrist, Dosary. I educate my patients so that they understand why they're making these changes. I have them read good books. I have them own the information because when they own it, they're empowered.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Even with best effort Sometimes we need a little hormone depending on their age. We might need some probiotic support for a short time. I'm not a big fan of doing that long term. We might need to obviously address nutritional deficiencies. It's a comprehensive holistic way of getting the body back to homeostasis.
Calley Means: And
Dr. Tyna Moore: when the body comes back to homeostasis, weight starts to fall off.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Right? And so that's part 1. Part 2, the the something that no one's talking about, that obesity birds know well is that getting weight off is actually the easy part keeping weight off is incredibly difficult. Yeah. So what do we do there?
Dr. Tyna Moore: And I think that this
Dr. Mark Hyman: important because because what we're seeing before was that, you know, these are perceived as lifelong drugs, but maybe they're not if we use them properly.
Dr. Tyna Moore: We gotta get leptin signaling corrected. We gotta get ghrelin signaling. We gotta there's leptin resistance in the brain. There's cortisol. There's all kinds of issues I look at a person comprehensively.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I don't look at them as a condition. They come in and they say, I have this, this, and this. I'm like, okay, what do you do? I'm interested in you. Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: You know, Mark, see what what's going on with Mark. How do we get Mark back to homeostasis? And things start to fall into place that way. It's a slow, steady process. I really is not everybody has access to doctors like you and I, and I realize that not everybody knows how to practice the way we do or even wants to practice because it takes time and it's arduous and it's and it's like trying to hit a moving target.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Right? But I'm trying to pull people back to center. So when they know better, they do better. They can educate their families. They can that trickles down.
Dr. Tyna Moore: You know, I catch my daughter schooling her friends on things. I catch my husband teaching the work crew about nutrition and his own, like, you know, blue collared way. So we teach and we educate. And that's all I'm really trying to do about these peptides is like, yes, I understand that monotherapy high dose, the way being handled jabbing twelve year olds with it, not the solution. Not long term, not sustainable, not a good idea, but there's nuance here.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And I do think they have a place And so I will use them as needed per the individual. I don't know if that person's gonna need it forever. I don't know how metabolically busted they are. I don't know how quickly they're gonna respond. And I don't mind.
Dr. Tyna Moore: If they feel fine taking a tiny little dose of this and cycling it for a long period of time, I am there to treat them and serve them. I'm not there to impart my policy changes on them for a worldview and say, Well, Ozempic's bad. Therefore, you can't have it. That's not my job.
Dr. Mark Hyman: In a sense, what you're talking about is taking someone who's metabolically busted, as you call it, to what I call Metabolic, So when I take a patient who's type 2 diabetic who's on, you know, 100 use of insulin, I'm like, no. You you can't have any sugar. Of course. You probably can't have any fruit for now. You can't have any flour.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Like, this is just a hard no. Okay? If you wanna get reversing your diabetes, you just need a, like, Benjamin's Franklin said, you need a pound of cure. Yeah. Not an ounce of prevention.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And then when we get them metabolic and resilient, then, yeah, you can add that stuff back and you can try to have a little, see how it affects you, have some more fruit. Wanna have a sugar or a dessert once in a while. Okay. But at the end of the meal, you know, become more metabolic and resilient. And when you're talking about a shifting people from metabolic busted to metabolic and resilient and using a holistic approach that may include peptides.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Right? Correct.
Calley Means: But but but weren't didn't you say your patients weren't metabolically busted?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Not all of them. They work better in people who are using them to optimize. If we're just using peptides to optimize or we're using a little TRT or a little bio identical hormone and someone who's generally optimized, it's a much lower easier process.
Calley Means: Like
Dr. Mark Hyman: your dad, for example, you mentioned
Dr. Tyna Moore: your dad's
Calley Means: a mess.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Podcast. He's got diabetic. He's hungry.
Dr. Tyna Moore: He's a mess.
Dr. Mark Hyman: £100 over weight. Like, what would you do for him?
Dr. Tyna Moore: My dad doesn't matter what I teach him. He's not gonna change his eating habits. He's got a serious addiction.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And so I told him I was like, hey, dad, you've got one foot in the grave. You're in your early eighties. You're on your way out as toes or purple. I mean, he's Yeah. He's looking at toe amputation.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Here in a hot second. He won't walk anywhere. He won't do anything. I said, I am gonna crank the dose up on you. I'm gonna get this weight off, but you know what?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Cranking the dose up in my world does not match what the allopathic system is doing. We're still going very slow and low. And my dad's actually talking now, and he's got hope. And it's the first time at Christmas. This Christmas was the first past one that we actually had a conversation.
Dr. Tyna Moore: My dad was involved instead of just being checked out and glazed over. So he and he has hope I bought him a vest, like a puffy vest. I said, so you can wear them on your walks because he can't get a jacket on because he's so heavy. He doesn't wanna go outside and be seen. He's embarrassed.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Yep. And so I bought him a puffy vest, and it didn't quite fit. And he looked at me and he goes, I have I'm hopeful this is gonna fit me soon. And, like Yeah. I have my dad back.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And he's still on a baby dose.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: You know, it's a little bit higher than the starting dose, but it's still a baby dose. And so be it. And if he has to take it forever, so be
Dr. Mark Hyman: it. Seen.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's working. It's working great, and it's slow and low and the weight lie. He's so heavy. He can't get on a traditional scale, so we don't even know what his weight is. But his doctor was so impressed.
Dr. Tyna Moore: His doctor said, let her manage that. Let her keep going. And you know what I do when I go over? I drop little dietary tidbits. And I'm like, hey, maybe you shouldn't be sucking this down all day, dad.
Dr. Tyna Moore: It's not so good for you. But he's actually his lights are on and he's listening. So I had to do something because for 3 decades, I watch him decline, and I couldn't do anything. And I'm I'm shocked. He's still alive.
Dr. Tyna Moore: So I was like, you know what? We're throwing in the Ozempic. We're gonna see what happens. And mean, I'm really It's been a danger.
Dr. Mark Hyman: We call these these sort of non, like, weight loss effects. And and and I'm I'm reading some papers around Ozem corponosis effect, but GLP 1 agonist and longevity. And, you know, obviously, I'm really interested in longevity. I was like, wow, this is really interesting. It it it reduces inflammation.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It reduces oxygen stress improves mitochondrial function. It helps neuroinflammation. All the things that we know cause uh-uh uh-uh aging. Now I I I do have a thought. Well, wouldn't if you just lost weight?
Dr. Mark Hyman: Would that be enough? I don't know. But but, it's interesting. And I think there's really interesting mechanisms, that that we're we're kind of just learning about. And I think Like, you're right.
Dr. Mark Hyman: We can't throw the baby out with the bathroom. There may this this there there and and I think one of the challenges is that people can't get therapy in the way that we're talking about easily. And and I just wanna dive into that for a minute. And this is this whole world of of compounded peptides. So for those who are not listening, there's prescription drugs you can get at the drugstore, that are FDA approved and that, are are, brand name usually or generic versions of those.
Dr. Mark Hyman: There's a there's a all kinds of compounds whether it's b vitamins or whether it's glutathione or other things that we use in medicine. That have to be made by nontraditional pharmacists called compounding pharmacies, and they produce things like peptides or are intravenous nutrition or different formulations of hormones that you might like that you might not get a prescription like a cream or a gel. So so compounding is is is is tricky because compounded drugs are not well regulated. And so you have to know what you're doing. You have to find the right Farmacy.
Dr. Mark Hyman: You have to make sure they have proper testing for the dosage, the purity, the potency, and the FDA has come out really hard against these. Now maybe because they're just in good shape, I don't know. But, basically, I've been using these compounded peptides for a long Hyman, and I find extremely effective for myself personally, for my patients, for all sorts of different reasons. And and, and semaglutide is just a peptide. And what's really striking is you can get it for, like, literally pennies a day.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And and instead of, you know, costing you $20,000 a year, it it might cost you a few $100 a year. And in fact, the study came out just last week in JAMA talking about the price of of these GLP 1 drugs. Maybe going between 75¢ a month, you know, to $72 a month. We we even in Canada, it's $300 a And here it's like, you know, 17, $1800 a month. So, these compounded, things are not easy to get.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Not easy to use. You have to mix them up yourself. You have to drum up like a a doctor with putting water in the bottle and sterile and then drawing it up and then injecting it. Self with a needle. It's like a diabetic, you know, diabetics do.
Dr. Mark Hyman: They take, you know, an insulin bottle and they pull up the insulin and they but now they have insulin pumps and different things they don't have to do that Mark It's it's kinda a little bit tricky to use it. Right? And then you have to find a doctor who knows what they're doing. So can you speak to this sort of this version of peptides you're using, the compounded peptides and and why you use those, why they're different, and how how you kind of navigate this tricky world.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Well, I've always used compounding pharmacies since I graduated and a license, and I didn't realize that most doctors didn't, to be honest with you at first. I that was my bubble of privilege, but I have found that somaclotide enters appetite when compounded are always coming premixed, so they're not you don't have to reconstitute them like some of the other peptides. They're coming mixed step with clear instructions on the label and then patients are to draw them up. I have heard that we're seeing problems. People presenting to the ER because they're taking too much.
Dr. Tyna Moore: These peptides It's
Dr. Mark Hyman: not a like, the prefilled syringes, like, Ozempic is a prefilled syringe. You can't screwed up.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Right. You can't screw it up.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Button that goes in, doses can't
Dr. Tyna Moore: change the dose. It is what it is.
Dr. Mark Hyman: If you if you drop too much and you know what you're doing Right. You think it's supposed to be a hundred units, but it should be 10 units. You're kinda screwed.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Right. So that comes down to doctor education with a patient in the office and being careful that. And I realized, like you said, there's, you know, internet telemed doctors. You can just get it sent to you. But even in those cases, the patients I know who are using those, some some are going that route, and they're finding it to be just fine.
Dr. Tyna Moore: No one's run into any problems. When people want the fast route, I think they might start piggybacking. We heard about that woman who died in Australia. She actually was using 2 separate types of peptides, and neither were prescribed or maybe one was prescribed. And when she got off the internet, she piggy backed them, and she ended up dead.
Dr. Tyna Moore: So there are problems, and you can get in trouble fast for sure. Just even the slightest little bit too much, and you might have start seeing some nausea. You might start seeing some stomach aches. So we don't want that, but I don't think that compounding pharmacies are the danger the FDA is making them out to be. I've been watching the smear campaign lately, and it's incredible.
Dr. Tyna Moore: They really are on the bender. They don't want these peptides getting released without them being, and I'm that is something to do with big pharma. We can speculate, but, I don't see any problem with it. And you can play with a dose. That's why I like compounding.
Dr. Tyna Moore: We can play with a hormone dose. We can play with all the doses, and we can in the whole point of compounding to me is that you individualize the medication for the patient in front of you.
Calley Means: A total alignment here. I, we were just talking before we came on that a report said Ozempic cost about $5 to make. They're charging Americans and American taxpayers, in many cases, and more soon, around $1800 Yeah. Hyman month. And then Germany is paying, like, $60.
Calley Means: A month. So the the margins on this product are astounding. That's a scandal. And and there's definitely a war. Just to be clear, like, I'm not anti drug.
Calley Means: I'm I'm kind of a libertarian. Like, I think people should have access to biohack and and, take whatever drugs they want. There's definitely a pronounced thing here. The reason this is getting so much attention is because there's so much profit that can be made from basically, taking advantage of the taxpayer, which is where the opportunity cost really comes in because those 100 of 1,000,000,000 of dollars, could go to, actually fixing our food supply.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So so kind of at a high level just to kind of summarize. We kind of agree that we have a toxic food environment that's driving this that we have a world in which our microbiome has been completely destroyed that affects our metabolism weight, that there is a flood of obesity in the environment that are are contributing to our metabolic dysfunction that 90 2 percent of Americans are somehow screwed up in their metabolic health and that our current solutions don't work. We're also in agreement that we should be fixing our food system so that we kids are eating healthy stuff in schools and that that people aren't exposed to a food carnival everywhere they go of of junk food. And that that that people are, actually in a medical system that can support nutrition education that supports intensive lifestyle therapies that funds all those things. I don't and you and I working on that in Washington, Calley, and we're working hard but again, it's like, you know, it's like getting slavery or civil rights or women's rights.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's gonna take a minute. In the meantime, we're we're seeing, you know, a crisis poor metabolic health and and, you know, our current solutions aren't working. Now is is is the Ozempic Revolution, the solution? I don't think is the smart use of peptides in the right patients, a potential solution done in a different way with a 360 view of lifestyle change and lower doses that mitigate those side effects that can be done in a way that don't lead to rebound weight gain. They don't lead to the muscle laws that increase approaching at a gram per pound that make you hit the gym pump iron four times a week that Aaron included with aggressive lifestyle behavioral change support and coaching.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I I think there's a role for it, but I don't think it's it's how it's being done now. And I think we all kind of agree with that. Yeah. Can I miss anything? A couple.
Calley Means: A couple quick reactions is, and this is just my perspective from digging this issue a lot. I think that if you're extremely obese and diabetic, your case with your father, that seems to make sense. It's like no no no complaints there. You're really lost your way, which is a which is the edge case of folks.
Dr. Mark Hyman: If you want £10 off for the summer, no.
Calley Means: Well, I the one I will say, the one case I think is promising is PCOS. I mean, people don't realize PCOS is insulin resistance, essentially in a metabolic dysfunction. If you do a crash diet, you're actually gonna increase your fertility most likely and and reduce the symptoms of PUS. So for a targeted, basically crash diet to improve your insulin resistance quickly, I don't think it's a long term solved, but I do actually get that. I I I if you again, if you do it if you do a big calorie deficit diet and and get your insulin resistance under control or fasting, you will improve PCOS.
Calley Means: So I do get that. I think the key thing is the average American. The average American we're facing, toxic, environment. And we have to, as a matter of public policy, get the average American practicing habits that are combating all of these threats toward metabolic health. And I think we are being lied to that this is a long term solve for that, which is the which is the most pronounced, use case.
Calley Means: If you are a patient in the kind of middle of the
Dr. Mark Hyman: mantra of the medical establishment is that this is a lifetime drug?
Calley Means: Yeah. For for the majority of the American people, which is why this is the most valuable company in Europe.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Although it's interesting that about, you know, 50 to 75% of people quit after here.
Calley Means: Yeah. Yeah. So so so that speaks well, that speaks to that that I do believe I do I actually believe the drug is gonna be because of the side effects. It's actually extremely pronounced side effects, that we talked about. And I I actually think the drugs is disaster and gonna be recalled that even in the absence of that, It's not the long term solution for the median American.
Calley Means: If you were a patient and particularly if you're a parent, I would be very skeptical when your doctor inevitably tells you that this is a long term solution, a lifetime solution for dealing with metabolic dysfunction. And my big point is if not now when this is 0 sum. Are we going to spend $1800 per person per month on an injection, or we're finally gonna ask in the midst of a situation where we're mass poisoning children in utero from metabolic dysfunction.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Calley Means: Are we going to actually change way and follow what you have been putting to state down?
Dr. Mark Hyman: I mean,
Calley Means: I hope
Dr. Mark Hyman: so. Right now.
Calley Means: I hope so. We
Dr. Tyna Moore: should not we
Calley Means: should be very impatient. So that's and that's why Ozempic is important, Mark.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I'm in a curious open minded, but skeptical kind of moment around these GLP 1 agonists. And I'm doing a lot of work in researching what they do, how they work, that the complications, the side effects, but also the beneficial effects. And I think the the thing about peptides is so fascinating is is and Tyna, you hit on this is they're regenerative. They they help to regenerate and repair. So it's a miracle to me.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Like like, I could take an Advil and and sure it might, whatever won't hurt for that night. But the next day, it's gonna freaking hurt. If I take a shot of a peptide, I'm like, damn, that I sent him the night. It went away. And now I can lift weights again.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I'm like, that was pretty cool. And so I'm like, these are really different in their biological actions. And so they become drugs because not because they're patentable. But because the delivery system is patentable. Yes.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And they got collected.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Is a little auto injector, not the actual compound. That's why you can get it in a in a compounding Farmacy. For pennies.
Dr. Tyna Moore: Right. I just wanna say that since I released these podcasts on my podcast, I've gotten hundreds. And haters? Well, I've gotten hundreds of messages from people.
Dr. Mark Hyman: What have you heard?
Dr. Tyna Moore: And I have a I don't have the size of audience you do, but I have a sizable audience. And I have so many people writing me saying, I'm writing you through tears. Like that exact quote, I'm writing you through tears. Thank you so much for shedding light on this. I have been on these peptides.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I do all the things. I follow you. I mean, I know the average American doesn't have access to doctors like us, They do have a there's so much free education on the internet now.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And they are combing through it. They're implementing. They're doing all the things. And they just couldn't get over that hump, and they started GLP 1 agonist, and it got him over that hump. And they are crying in gratitude.
Dr. Tyna Moore: 100 of people messaging me constantly. They're also telling me that they don't tell their husbands they're on it because they're getting shamed. The pharmacist is giving them side eye. Their family comes down on them at every holiday meal because these peptides are being so vilified. So I'm team patient and I'm team whoever's sitting in front of me, like you said, and I'm gonna do whatever I need to do to get that person, what they need.
Dr. Tyna Moore: To get that leg up because what I'm finding and what my followers are reporting and what my patients are reporting is that once they start on these cup tides and they start to take effect and they start to get that decrease in neuroinflammation and they start to lose a few pounds. They wanna move.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: And they wanna eat right. And they suddenly have energy because it is impacting the HPA access, and they're suddenly wanting to actually cook the meals instead of going out for fast food or order in. They're starting to implement implement the strategies that they need to be doing, that they just didn't have the energy or the gumption to do before. I don't know what it is that gets people to implement. I that has been the one crux of my practice.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I cannot figure out why some people implement and some people don't, but some people just need a leg up. So
Calley Means: I wanna be clear too. I I thought it was I was very important for me to put some, frankly, doubt in a listener's head and put some of these, macro turns and and frankly, systemic concerns as as folks determine whether to use the standard form of prescribed Ozempic for themselves or their children, but we're in total agreement. But, Doctor Tyna, I I I think we need to get to a world. I I I really believe the American people make the right decision if they're not. Corrupted by bad incentives and bad information.
Calley Means: I think it is, you know, perfect. It is it is a scandal that these drugs cost so much. It's a scam. You just wanna play
Dr. Mark Hyman: for mediCalleyndustrial.
Calley Means: Yeah. A scandal. It's a scandal if they're being
Dr. Mark Hyman: pushed out
Calley Means: the odds and the
Dr. Mark Hyman: the agricultural food industry complex. Yeah. But but but the you know, I'm I'm with you. I'm I think it's very important. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's very
Calley Means: important. And and, you know, I I think I don't know much about the regenerative aspects, but I think that's very promising. It's It's not blanket either or. I think, obviously, the systemic, I think, wambing these drugs into a virus is a problem, but but I really do think we need to to where back to this was a bio as you mentioned. This is a biohacking kind of.
Calley Means: This has been around for decades, these peptides where people have been experimenting. I I I think that's great. And I think people should be able to experiment. And I just think the societal solution froze, for obesity is it's a really problematic. With this drug.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Well, Calley, I agree. And I I thank you for working on this issue. So diligently, you're going all over the country. You're you're everywhere now. I'm I'm really inspired by your your voice and your mission to, you know, get people to wake up to what's going on.
Dr. Mark Hyman: I I've tried to do it for a long time. You're you're a bit more, passionate and and, vocal and and, compelling than I am. So maybe you're gonna help push it over. I'm reading from your Hyman. I've been, like, I've been, like, like, system is pushing the rock uphill for, like, 30 years or 40 years.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I think you're, like, superman, you're gonna push over the edge and it's gonna fly down. So your book is amazing. Good energy, the surprising connection between metabolism and limitless health. People should definitely get that. You wrote it with your sister, Casey means And it lays out a lot of these issues around metabolic health and our social political issues.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It's it's a must get book. It's out now. So make sure you get it. And and Tyna, you know, your work is so important. I think both of you are some of the most thoughtful, committed people I've ever met who are thinking about these deeply and not just sort of at the surface and trying to find real solutions both on the macro and micro level.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I I'm so grateful to both of you and you're work Tyna. You you have a wonderful free GLP 1 video training series, Ozempic uncovered. If you wanna get deeper with Tyna for sure, go there, it's Doctor. Tyna t, doctor, d r t y n a dot com forward slash Ozempic uncovered. That's doctor Tyna.com.
Dr. Mark Hyman: For slash Ozempic uncovered. Be sure to look at it. We'll put it all in the show notes. We're gonna put all the studies in the show notes we talked about. We're gonna put more studies in there.
Dr. Mark Hyman: We did probably 20 hours or research that I did. I probably my team did 20 hours on top of that. You guys have done so much. All that's going in the show notes, you can click through and read the studies yourself. You can make a decision for yourself, but I think what we're talking about is a very different and nuanced view of how to approach this problem, both poor metabolic health.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I love this concept for metabolic busted. And also the macro issue of, you know, how do we deal with this as social level so we don't have to give people Ozempic or anything else. We just, you know, somebody, send me a video of, like, somebody walking around in the 70, but down the beach in the seventies. And they'll be like, not a single person overweight in the seventies. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman: So now it's like, we're all we're all in this together. So Thank you both. Any last thoughts or words from either of you?
Dr. Tyna Moore: Well, there was one study I didn't share, and I don't know if we're allowed to talk about it here, they did it in 2022. They had type 2 diabetics admitted to hospital with COVID. They administered once a week semaglutide for a few weeks. 80% reduction in death and ICU admission. Interesting.
Dr. Mark Hyman: That makes sense. That makes sense because if you're improving metabolic health, you're you're lowering your risk.
Dr. Tyna Moore: I'm just wondering aside from the good points that Calley makes.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: There aren't potentially some smear campaigns on these going forward too from.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Well, listen. It's it's yeah.
Dr. Tyna Moore: That's true.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And I
Calley Means: would just say I know we're all in agreement that our body is also GLP 1 agonist, and we can create, with food and with supplementation, GRP 1. And, my company, which which we're proud to have you as a sport of true med, we have doctors write intervention. To actually combat obesity with food as medicine, pendulum. I know a company, where where fans of has a new product that's specifically formulated. So so we actually help if appropriate, unlock tax free spending to these items.
Calley Means: And that's where I think the rubber really hits the road. We need to be steering money to food and pendulum, not, necessarily drugs. And, that's what we're doing right now at Truman. Well, we
Dr. Mark Hyman: didn't get to talk about it enough, and we'll we'll put it in the shown on Centene. You talk about a lot, but there are are are ways to naturally increase our GLP 1. For example, if you are testosterone deficient, if you hit the gym and you pump by your testosterone go up, If you stop eating sugar and starch or testosterone, it's the same thing with GLP 1. If you're low in GLP 1, there are natural ways to do it by eating more protein by sizing by taking certain herbs like Burberry and and cinnamon. There are other things that that actually work to help.
Dr. Mark Hyman: And and I want you to just for a second talk about true med because it's a way for people to get access to these kinds of treatments with tax free dollars. So tell us about true men for a sec because I think it's important if people are wanting to make lifestyle change can't afford it or they think they have money. There's a way to get access to these things with dollars that are pretax dollars.
Calley Means: I go to my mom, the standard American patient, when she had high cholesterol, She got a quick prescription for a statin. That doctor could have written a letter of medical necessity for probiotics, for healthy food, for size. And with that letter of medical necessity unlocks tax free spending, there's a $150,000,000,000 in these HSA FSA accounts. Now, those are generally just waiting for you to get sick. You go to drugs.
Calley Means: Yeah. Health savings accounts. And those often are just you get sick and you buy your drugs. You buy your inventions. Those can go right now to root cause items to items that you talk about to pendulum, to athletic greens, to daily harvest, to cross to to companies, we're proud to partner
Dr. Mark Hyman: with right now. I use my HSA card to buy supplements with TruMed. I use my HSA guy to to buy you know, things when I go to get acupuncture or get a massage or do things that actually help my my body.
Calley Means: We've been so proud in the past 5 months. We've done a 130,000 patient so much that some of the some of the arms of the health care industrial complex are saying, hey. It's moving a little fast, but this is fully within the law right now that medicine can be food can be supplements, can be exercised if a doctor outlines those interventions for the prevention or reversal of disease. We can do that. And what our message is, whether you use true med or not, if you're about to get, your Ozempic or a statin or metformin.
Calley Means: If you're getting about to get on that chronic disease treadmill or your child, you can ask your Hey, can we do a letter of medical necessity instead? Can we actually outline some dietary exercise lifestyle interventions? And with that letter, you can actually use tax free money on those items. We've got to steer money medical dollars
Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.
Calley Means: To these items. So that's what our mission is.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Kelly for doing that and making it available. That's such a great thing. And I think you both are applied to education training doing such good things in the world. I'm really honored to have you on the doctor's Farmacy podcast. Maybe we'll have you back to go deeper.
Dr. Mark Hyman: It was a great conversation. I think people hopefully got the sense of what we're talking about and, and have a little bit more think about when it comes to this and get out of the binary black or white conversations and talk about more of the nuance and be able to actually get deep into a topic that matters for all of us, which is getting America healthy, getting us as individuals healthy, and creating a solution works and includes all the potential levers we have to pull because sometimes we need a pound a cure. So thank you both, and, and we'll see you again soon. Thanks for listening today. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends and family.
Dr. Mark Hyman: Leave a comment on your own best practices on how you upgrade your health and scribe wherever you get your podcasts. And follow me on all social media channels at Doctor Mark Hyman, and we'll see you next time on the doctor's Farmacy. I'm always getting questions about my favorite books, podcasts, gadgets, supplements, recipes, and lots more. And now you can have access to all of this information by signing up for my free Mark newsletter at doctor Hyman. I promise I'll only email you once a week on Fridays, and I'll never share your email address or send you anything else besides my recommendations.
Calley Means: These are
Dr. Mark Hyman: the things that helped me on my health journey, and I hope they'll help you too. Again, that's doctor Hyman. Thank you again, and we'll see you next time on the doctor's Farmacy. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Delta wellness center and my work at Cleveland Clinic and function health where I'm the chief medical officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guest opinions, and neither myself nor the podcast endorsement of views or statements of my guests.
Dr. Mark Hyman: This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. Now if you're looking for your help in your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner You can come see us at the UltraWellness Center in Lenox, Massachusetts. Just go to ultrabellnesscenter.com.
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