The Secret To Happiness That No One Tells You with Mark Manson - Transcript
Dr. Mark Hyman
Coming up on this episode of The Doctor's Farmacy.
Mark Manson
And I think this is a problem with a lot of people who are very unhealthy. My idea of, like, a healthy meal was just anything with a vegetable in it. You know, when I drank tonight, I only had 2 drinks instead of 5, so that's healthy.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So, like, it so, you know,
Mark Manson
it's just, like, your definition
Dr. Mark Hyman
like half a piece instead of a whole piece.
Mark Manson
Exactly. Healthy.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Before we jump into today's episode, I'd like to note that while I wish I could help everyone via my personal practice, there's simply not enough time for me to do this at this scale. And that's why I've been busy building several passion projects to help you better understand, well, you. If you're looking for data about your biology, check out function health for real time lab insights. If you're in need of deepening your knowledge around your health journey, check out my membership community, Hyman Hive. And if you're looking for curated and trusted supplements and health products for your routine, visit my website, supplement store, for a summary of my favorite and tested products.
Hey, everyone. It's doctor Mark Hyman. Ever wanted to ask me your health and wellness questions directly? Well, here's your chance. I have an exciting exclusive event coming up that you could be part of as a thank you for being a loyal listener on The Doctors Pharmacy.
On Wednesday, December 4th, I'm hosting a live digital experience called the Diet Wars, and I want you to join me. I'll be chatting with doctor Gabrielle Lyon, a board certified family doc and New York Times best selling author as we tackle one of the biggest wellness questions out there. Which diet really gives you the best shot at optimal health? Should you be a vegan? Should you be a carnivore or somewhere in between?
From paleo to vegan to carnivore and GLP ones, we'll break down the science, debunk the myths, and share our expert perspectives, help you make the best choices for your health. And here's the best part. You'll be able to interact with me and chat with our amazing community in real time during the event. Plus, if you're a VIP ticket holder, you'll get to join an exclusive q and a after party where you can ask us all your questions directly. The Dye Wars is a one time only experience that you you don't wanna miss, including limited edition merch.
It's all happening live on moment by Patreon, so mark your calendars for Wednesday, December 4th at 9 PM EST, 6 PM Pacific, and head over to moment dotc0forward/marc hyman to get your tickets. I can't wait to see you there. Welcome to Doctor's Pharmacy. This is doctor Mark Hyman, a place for conversations that matter. And if you care about living a good life and maybe learning why some of the self help material out there is not so helpful in a counterintuitive approach, You're gonna love this conversation with an extraordinary man, my friend and author, Mark Manson, who is a 3 times New York Times number one bestselling author.
His most well known work is called, and I'm not saying this to just say profanity, but it's actually the title of the book, is The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life. He reached number 1 in 14 different countries. His books have been translated into over 65 languages, sold over 20,000,000 copies, which is no small feat as an author. He runs one of the largest personal growth websites in the world, Mark Manson dot net, and a blog with more than 15,000,000 yearly readers and half a 1000000 subscribers. And he's just an awesome dude.
His writing is often described as self help for people who hate self help, a no BS brand of life advice and cultural commentary that struck a chord with people around the globe. His writing has appeared everywhere in New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine, Forbes, BBC, CNN, Vox, and so many others, and he's become a good friend. We're gonna we're gonna talk about his life story and what happened and some of the interesting things that we discussed today in terms of, what are the 5 simple ideas to change your life. We're gonna get into those. We're gonna get into, the work that he's done around rethinking our approach to self help, and we're gonna get into some great personal and intimate conversations about my life and his life.
I think you're gonna love this conversation. So let's dive right into this podcast with Mark Manson. Hey, Mark. It's so great to have you on the doctor's pharmacy podcast and see you again. It's been a while, and you've gone through some massive life changes.
Pretty amazing. Yeah. And, you know, you you, for those of you who don't know Mark, he kind of at 32 hit this wild success point, writing this book called The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, which, stirred up a lot of, controversy. It was hard to get published with that title. Yep.
And and I actually wanted to read, write a book called What the Fuck Should I Eat, but they they wouldn't they wouldn't let me. They made me call it what what the heck should I eat. Nice. So the whole premise of your work has really been sort of contrary to a lot of what, generally has been out there around self development, self help, what we believe about ourselves, how we live our lives, how we think about creating, a a vision for our lives. And and it's really, you know, I just trying to understand the origins of Sure.
Just because, you know, looking back to your history, you were a young kid, you were kinda make struggling, you kinda had a blog, you were learning how to kinda deal with women, and, you know, part of this whole pickup artist scene that was kind of it's kind of a strange scene. Sure. And and, you know, you kinda morphed into kind of an awakening that allowed you to kind of think about how to be happy without focusing on being happy or something like that. So
Mark Manson
Well, the the way I would if I had to if I had to give an elevator pitch for my philosophy or my work, it it would essentially be that I felt very strongly, say, 15 years ago that the personal development self help industry over index for positivity. It was all about feeling good all the time. Yeah. And and I think it began the mistake that feeling good meant you were feeling better. Whereas you can easily delude yourself in the feeling good when you're actually not better.
You're actually worse. And so I I strongly believe and I've strongly felt my entire life that getting better means getting more honest, getting more honest about yourself, getting more honest about the world, getting more honest about your relationships.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.
Mark Manson
And getting honest is not always does not always feel good.
Dr. Mark Hyman
No. It's not always easy.
Mark Manson
It's not always easy. In the short term, it it it often hurts, but in the long term, it makes both you, other people, and everybody better. So that's, like, the crux of my philosophy.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Don't lie to yourself or others.
Mark Manson
Yeah. Just don't don't just try don't lie to yourself.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
And, you know, I I think I I have a line in one of my books that it's, like, self improvement is just, like, a a a constant process of lying to yourself less. Yeah. And, and we all lie to ourselves.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
We all bullshit ourselves. We all, you know, buy into beliefs and stories that make ourselves feel better. Like, it's just human nature. It's part of it. And, so it I I kinda see I'm, like, on this constant crusade to
Dr. Mark Hyman
No lie. To fight fight that back. Yeah. You know, it's what you're saying is so important. It's so true.
And and and the most pernicious lies are the ones we tell to ourselves.
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
The fact that we can't look honestly at ourselves, look in the mirror at our behaviors, our choices, our thinking, not question our thoughts. I mean, it's it's really remarkable how locked into lying our society is. It's just Yeah. A continuous parade of lies to ourselves and others without, without realizing the consequences to our happiness and our well-being. Yeah.
You know, I have a friend, Lauren Zander, who's who basically is a is a life coach, taught at the Haendel Group, and she really helped me kinda stop being a liar.
Mark Manson
It's hard.
Dr. Mark Hyman
It's really freaking hard.
Mark Manson
I mean, it's it's the the I think it was the Nobel Prize winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman. He said he said, as a species, we did not evolve to perceive truth. We evolved to perceive what helped us survive. Yeah. And and so on a very fundamental basis, our brain lies to us.
Yeah. Because it's it helps us survive and reproduce. So it's but it's it doesn't make us psychologically healthy. No. So,
Dr. Mark Hyman
you know, essentially, I I I've been kind of reading this book, which is literally opposite of what you're talking about. It's called 48 Rules of Power, which is basically looking historically at, you know, societies and cultures that have, you know, had to deal with intrigue and courtesans and hierarchy and monarchies and incurring favor and, you know, rising up in the ranks since it's from Machiavelli to, you know, who knows who? And it's it's fascinating because, you know, there is something you said for understanding human nature and how to work with human nature. And the book's not about power over people. It's about how to not be powerless in your life and understand how people and humans actually engage most of the time.
But, you know, one of the things that it struck me when I first met you was a a story that, your wife told when I said, so how did you guys meet? How did you fall in love? What's your story? You know? We had dinner in New York.
And Fernando, your wife was was, you call her Faye, I guess, was was, said something really striking to me. She says, well, he was, like, the first honest man I'd ever met. And and he was honest when he was honest with me, it was what I didn't wanna hear. Yeah. It was something that I was like, you know, I wanted to hang out and be together, and he was like, I'm out of here.
I'm in New York, and I don't know. This is my life, and I'm not sure. And, like, we'll see how it goes. And,
Mark Manson
like Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I was like, wow. You know? That's sexy. Yeah. You know?
And and that's that's a it's a very different tact than we normally take. Like, the whole pickup artist thing is the opposite of that. It's, like, it's more Machiavellian. How do you kind of contort yourself and shape yourself into somebody or something in the way you look and the way you speak and how you talk to people to get what you want out of somebody.
Mark Manson
Right? That's there's actually yeah. There's a really nice connection between all those things because the the pickup artist community industry, it optimizes for power. And optimizing for power means you're not optimizing for healthy relationships, and you're not optimizing for happiness, and and you're often being dishonest in the process. Whereas, you know, my belief very fundamentally in that industry, I just felt very disgusted by the whole thing.
And I was like, you know, that being honest, maybe it doesn't always get you the girl you want. Yeah. But the ones you get, you end up being so much happier with them. Yeah. And it ends up being such a better relationship.
Yeah. And you actually are compatible with each other, and she actually understands you and you actually understand her. Right. But, you know, going through that process, it isn't always pleasant. The the example the example I often use in talks is, is that it's you know, when I started dating my wife, you know, like most women, she would we'd be going out for a date night or whatever, and she put on an outfit.
And she'd walk out, and she'd be like, how do I look?
Dr. Mark Hyman
And you're like, you don't look good in that outfit.
Mark Manson
Exactly. I would, like, I would tell her that, and she would get so pissed off. And Well, don't ask me.
Dr. Mark Hyman
But but
Mark Manson
but it it's, but it's funny because it's, you know, early in our relationship, she really hated that. Yeah. And she was like, why why do you have this like, can't you just lie and say, like, I look great? And I was I was like, no. I'm not gonna do that.
But now it's if she walks out and we're about to go out and she looks amazing, and I tell her, you look amazing tonight. You're absolutely gorgeous. She knows I'm being honest. She knows I'm not bullshitting her. Right?
And so it's like that compliment hits
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
You know, 10 times as hard. And so I I just think that, like, that's just a fundamental aspect of life that, like, you can't really fully appreciate or enjoy the good things in life without being honest and and open to the bad things. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, I I think it's it's we're often afraid of the outcome. I know for me, you know, as a kid and my stepfather was a rageaholic.
Mark Manson
Mhmm.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, I I I the story I don't know if I've told this on the podcast. I might have, but I was like, my mother married. My stepfather moved to Canada. I was 7 years old, and he was like a clean freak. Mhmm.
And back in those days, in the sixties back then I'm really old.
Mark Manson
Sorry. We
Dr. Mark Hyman
we didn't have those, kitchen sink, you know, you know, garberators or whatever you call them, disposals.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and so I had to throw out some, like, soup, and the way we would do it is, like, throw it down the toilet. And my mom said, go take this pot of whatever leftover soup and throw it down the toilet. And so I went in there and I threw it down the toilet. I flushed the toilet. I came out and he was standing there.
He's a, like, big barrel chested guy, booming voice. He's like, did you wash your hands? And I'm like, no. Yeah. Because I didn't go to the bathroom.
And he went into a rage, and he, like, threw me against the wall, like, literally threw me across the room, like like, almost like a football smashing against the wall. It was the most terrifying experience to set little 7 year old kid. I was really little. I'm not I'm, like, 6 foot 3 now, but I was, like Sure. A little shrimpy kid.
And and then my mother, sort of, in order to keep the peace, would always say to me, don't tell your father this. Don't tell your and my grandmother would do it. She say, I give you $5. Don't tell your mother I gave you $5. Like so it was like this embedded thing growing up in or in order to manage people's emotions and not have to deal with the effects on you.
Yeah. In other words, their reaction, which you can't control
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Don't tell them the truth, manipulate them to try to keep the peace and I became a people pleaser which is a liar. Yes, yes. Right? Absolutely. It's just being a liar.
Exactly. I'm a nice guy. I'm helping everybody. I'm saying yes. I'm like, no.
I'm just I'm just a liar to myself because I don't wanna do this freaking thing. Right. I'm a liar to whoever I'm talking to, and and it was really, you know, embedded in in sort of who I was and and learning unlearning that was not easy. Yeah. And I and for you, I'm wondering how did you get that epiphany where you were like, this isn't the way to go.
Like, because you went from basically being trained in how to lie Right. By one culture to, like, flipping to going, I'm gonna be involved in radical honesty.
Mark Manson
Well, it's interesting because I think my childhood was kind of the inversion of yours. I grew up in a in a dysfunctional family of people pleasers. So
Dr. Mark Hyman
People pleasers?
Mark Manson
Yes. So both of my parents are extremely nonconfrontational. Both my parents are people pleasers, and there would be situations in my house when I was a kid where it was like, clearly mom is pissed off at dad and clearly dad can't stand mom, but nobody's saying anything. Everybody's just smiling.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Smell it in the air.
Mark Manson
Everybody's smiling and pretending everything's okay, and and and it the the amount of tension and discomfort that there was. And so I became and this is my dad has told me this much later, but, you know, I became the the truthsayer in the family. So I would be the one in the family walk into the room and be like
Dr. Mark Hyman
that little shit disturber.
Mark Manson
Yeah. I was like, why are you why are you mad? Like, why are you mad
Dr. Mark Hyman
at her? And I'm not mad.
Mark Manson
I'm not mad.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I don't know what you're talking about.
Mark Manson
I'm like, look. Clearly, you're mad. You're not talking to her. You know? It it so I would be the one who'd stir up all the shit.
And I think, you know, as a kid, I was trying to adapt to my family. Like, keep my family together and functioning. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
But existential because if you're a kid and, you know, your survival depends on these 2 grown ups and they're a shit show
Mark Manson
Who who who burying their heads in the sand Right. And ignoring everything. You know? So it it was it was a survival mechanism, but I think it it it has served me well. I mean, essentially, my career is being that true sayer of being, like, you know, going into the pickup industry and being like, hey, guys.
You're a bunch of manipulative fucks. Like, you need to be honest. Like, not only is this this, like Yeah. Questionably unethical, but, like, you if you wanna ever have a happy, healthy relationship and not be a raging misogynist, like, you need to start being honest with women. Right.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And
Mark Manson
I went to the self help industry. I'm like, guys, you can't it's not gonna be unicorns and rainbows all the time. Like, I don't care how many meditations you do or, like
Dr. Mark Hyman
How much would you say?
Mark Manson
Yeah. How much you fucking microdose. Like, life's gonna suck sometimes, and we should actually be honest about that. And,
Dr. Mark Hyman
Even in the full lotus position is Yeah.
Mark Manson
So it still it still fucking sucks. So, you know, it's it's like, that's that's essentially what I get paid for. But but
Dr. Mark Hyman
but but, you know, the truth is that, like, life for all of us has its moments. Yes.
Mark Manson
You know,
Dr. Mark Hyman
ups and downs, joys, peaks and valleys. And and you're not saying it's not about having all of that. You're just saying, like, just don't pretend that that everything is perfect all the time and deny yourself the experience of reality, which actually is kinda better. I had I had a friend once when I was I was in college, and we were walking along in this beautiful country road. And she says, Mark, sometimes you're happy, and the rest of the time you're growing.
Mark Manson
That's a nice way to put it.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I'm like, oh,
Mark Manson
okay. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's it. And, you know, the the lying thing is so key. I I I I really did that consciously and unconsciously in all my relationships until the last one. And literally, the first I can I was so committed after my last, divorce to kind of really get honest, and when I met my current wife, I literally day 1, I just said everything? I'm like, yeah, here's who I am, here's what I got, here's what I don't got, here's what's working, here's what's not working, here's what my here's my crazies.
Here's my family. Here's, like Yeah. All the skeletons, like, this is just what it is. Here it all is. Take it or leave it.
You know. And, good thing is she stuck around. Yeah. And and she knows that I'm I'm straight, and it's it's a it's such a relief because I don't have to pretend anything.
Mark Manson
Well, the way the way I talked about it in my dating book is I said that it what it does is it polarizes responses. So what most people do when they date is they try to be middle of the road in everything. They try to not never have a controversial opinion because they want everybody they date to like them. But because they don't have anything that stands out or that is any, like, is exceptional or unique about them, they they don't develop strong attraction with anybody that they go out with. Whereas, when you introduce honesty like you did with your current wife and you lay everything out on the table And
Dr. Mark Hyman
it's vulnerable.
Mark Manson
It's completely vulnerable, and what you do is you polarize the reaction. So a certain percentage of women are gonna look at what you laid out on the table, and they're like, oh, that's not I'm
Dr. Mark Hyman
out of here.
Mark Manson
That's not for me.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I'm out
Mark Manson
of here. Thanks, but no. Thanks.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And but a small percentage of
Mark Manson
women are gonna be like, oh, wow. No. This is exactly what I want. And then and so then it the attraction actually becomes so much stronger, and and it's a a very authentic attraction. You're not you're not trying to there's no gamesmanship.
There's no one upping. There's no, you know, people pleasing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. So so, you know, you kind of recognize this in your late twenties, and you kinda kinda woke up to kind of the bullshit that you were living in your life. And, and you started to kinda just write this blog, and it kinda took off. And Right. And a lot of people resonated with this message, which was sort of counterintuitive.
Mhmm. But you've been extremely successful doing it and and have helped a lot of people think differently about how to look at, you know, make making their lives better in a in a kind of a contrary way. I I kinda kinda followed your trajectory, and and, you know, being young and having that much success can kinda fuck with your head a little bit.
Mark Manson
Yeah. And Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, you know, you you went you went through a period of of burnout. You kinda had this kind of a meteoric rise. Everybody on the planet was reading your book. I was actually very mad because I would walk into every airport and see it everywhere, and when I was writing my, you know, 15 New York Times bestsellers, like, just struggling to get them to get stay on the list, and I'm like, what's going on with this guy? And then, and and yet, there was a dark side to it for
Mark Manson
you. Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, you know, you got unhealthy. You weren't taking care of yourself. You were living life that, you know, wasn't actually what you wanted. And and I wonder kind of what what it took for you to kind of look at yourself and and and see where you were kind of asleep and maybe even sort of lying to yourself about what was going on.
Mark Manson
Yeah. So there's there's 2 aspects of this. There's kinda, like, the professional side of it, and then there's, like, the the health side of it. Yeah. I'll start with the professional.
We can go into that.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Yeah. I wanna get that outside.
Mark Manson
So because they are very related. So on the professional side, I think it was just too much too fast. You know? Like, I think our the way our brains seem to function is like we we tend to feel best. Like, I think most people, if they get a 10% raise each year, you know, they're like, oh, that was a good year.
You know? Yeah. And if it's 20% or 25%, like, wow, this is a really good year.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You went from living your mom's house to to being in a penthouse in New York. Right?
Mark Manson
Right. And it when it when it's 10000% in 1 year, your brain just kind of explodes. Like, you don't really know it it it takes it takes multiple years for your brain your identity to catch up to the reality of, like, okay, this has happened. And I think the result is a lot of things, you know, like imposter syndrome, insecurity, you know, I I definitely kinda felt like, okay. This this thing just really took off like a rocket.
I don't totally understand why this might be my 15 minutes. So let me let me just say yes to everything because I'm young. I don't have kids. Like, what else am I gonna do? So I did say yes to everything, and and I ended up burning myself out.
I ended up doing a lot of things that, like, I didn't totally love doing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So you were lying, and you were saying yes, and you meant no. Exactly.
Mark Manson
I I did not I was not aware of my it's ironic because all these things are in the book itself. I lost sight of my own values and what I cared about. Yeah. And I didn't know what to not give a fuck about. And, and so I started saying yes to everything.
I started people pleasing within the industry.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Giving a fuck. I started gave too many fucks,
Mark Manson
and, and and it got me into a lot of trouble. So, like, that was kind of the the professional side. And and I burnt myself out, and I I ended up reaching a point where I'm like, you know what? I really just need to, like, stop everything for a while and, like, get back in touch with myself and what I wanna do and what I enjoy doing and what I care about. So that that was kind of a wild ride professionally.
On kind of like a personal side and a health side, I think what you know, there there's this question that people ask all the time is, like, does money change you? And I don't I don't think money changes you. What what money does is it it takes the the guardrails off who you already are. So if you have if you have self destructive tendencies, but you're you're kinda broke or you depend on a corporate job and you need to make your boss happy, like, those are guardrails that kinda, like, maybe keep you a little bit in line because it's it's there's, like, really bad repercussions if you if you get out of line. Soon as a bunch of money falls on you, it's like those guardrails are gone.
Right. You can kinda do whatever you want. I had a lot of bad habits, bad lifestyle habits, some self destructive tendencies, and it, like, the guardrails were gone. And so I got started going out all the time, ate all the things, drank almost all the time, traveled way too much, partied way too much. And, like, don't get me wrong.
Some of that, I don't
Dr. Mark Hyman
there's a there's a
Mark Manson
certain amount of that I don't regret. But, I I think the the thing was is that I lost control and back to the lion thing. I was lying to myself about not being in control about it. So, so I I became extremely unhealthy, and I actually hit a point. I was writing 2 books in 2018.
Is it 2018? Yeah. 2018, I was writing 2 books simultaneously.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Everything's Fucked and the Will Smith book?
Mark Manson
Yeah. Yeah. Which I don't ever recommend doing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Doing 2 books at once or writing somebody else's book?
Mark Manson
Doing 2 books at once. And I had speaking tours. I was just, like, overloaded. I I was incredibly unhealthy. I gained a ton of weight.
I was drinking all the time, and I was sitting in my office writing one day, and I started getting chest pains. And my family has a long history of Oh. Heart disease.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Oh.
Mark Manson
And so I was like, I'm 35. Like, I can't be having like, this can't be happening now. Can't be having heart attacks.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right? I'm like, this is too early. Like, this is too soon.
Mark Manson
And so I went to some doctors. I got tests. You know, it turned out everything was fine, but, you know, the doctor being a good doctor was like, you know, have you been stressed lately? Like, what are your lifestyle habits like? And he kinda just gave me a wake up call.
Like, he was like, you know, this the trajectory you're on is, like, not a good one, right, especially given your family history. Yeah. And, so I I I had a little bit of a wake up call around my health and and realizing that, like, I need to get this shit figured out because it's like there is a lot of stuff in my family. I I ended up doing, like, a genetic test, discovered I have hemochromatosis. I have a double e four gene.
Oh.
Dr. Mark Hyman
The APOE4. That's a Alzheimer's risk gene.
Mark Manson
Yeah. So it's like
Dr. Mark Hyman
And hemochromatosis is where you store too much iron. It can, over time, just basically cause all your organs to rust, so it's not a good thing.
Mark Manson
No. No. Not it's not. And then, you know, at that point, I got I got a bunch of blood work done as well. You know, I was, like, prediabetic.
I was, like, massively overweight. I think I was, like, 42% body fat or something like that.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Men should be 10 to 20.
Mark Manson
Yeah. So Just for those listening. Yeah. So I was I was a train wreck, and so that that started a long, a long process of kinda, like, getting my my shit together health wise.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And what was that like for you? Because all of a sudden, you've kind of, you know, had a set of beliefs you had to change. You know? Yeah. And changing beliefs is not hard, and and part of your work is really about how do we look at our beliefs
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and see where they're leading us. Because our beliefs are the things that make us make the choices we make Right. And believe it and do the things we do and act the way we act, and they're often interrupted interrupting the values we have. Like so Totally. Our beliefs and values are always kinda alive.
Mark Manson
It it the hardest part was not only did I have, I guess, bad beliefs or inaccurate beliefs around health, it was I was also unaware of how bad or inaccurate my beliefs were. So and I think this is something that, like, I
Dr. Mark Hyman
You could've called me, Mark.
Mark Manson
I I should've. Well, I didn't know you at that point, but in hindsight, I should've. I think looking back, and I think this is a problem with a lot of people who are very unhealthy and that they struggle with to to get to get healthy, is that, like, their baseline understanding of what is healthy is just completely skewed or off. Right? So it's like my idea of, like, a healthy meal was, just anything with a vegetable in it.
You know? Like, in my head, I was like, well, I ate a salad for dinner even though that that salad had probably 1500 calories. Right? You know? But in my head, I didn't understand anything about calories.
I didn't understand anything about macros. All I understood was I ate a salad, so that's healthy. And, you know, when I drank tonight, I only had 2 drinks instead of 5, so that's healthy.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So, like, it so, you
Mark Manson
know, it's just like your definition
Dr. Mark Hyman
like half a piece instead of a whole piece.
Mark Manson
Exactly. So it's it's it a lot of it is just, like, a very skewed expectation of, like or understanding of, like, just what is healthy in the first place.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
And it's and it's hard to you know, like, I grew up in Texas. I grew up, Bubba's and barbecue? Bubba's and barbecue, fast food every other night. Like, it it you know, so in my head, I'm, like, looking at the people I grew up with and the people in my family. I'm like, well, I'm healthier, and that person, like
Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, that person is only £450. I'm like, oh, wait. 350, so I must be good.
Mark Manson
It's exact that's exactly what it is. Right? And it's and it was the same with the drinking too. It's like, well, you know, my friend over there is, like, facedown in a ditch, and I'm still, like, standing upright. So I must I'm like, I'm not that bad.
Right? So a lot of it is just like, what is your reference point? And my reference points were so bad that I, again, I lied to myself. It made it easy to lie to myself and be like, well, I'm being healthy. Right?
So I, you know, initially, I I I kinda like I did, like, the half assed uneducated version of getting in shape. You know, I started going to the gym, started eating 1500 calorie salads, started having 3 drinks instead of 5. Yeah. You know, and that I lost, like, 5 or £10 or whatever, but, like and then I plateaued, and I got stuck. And, of course, I, like, felt completely lost and, like, I don't understand.
Why am I, like, why am I not losing more weight? I'm being healthy. So there was there was definitely a, there was a there was early on there, there needed to be, like, an education process in terms of just getting good reference points.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And how did you get there?
Mark Manson
I eventually saw a a friend of mine, actually, a friend of a friend is a health coach, and so I they connected me to him, and he just I mean, he he just told me the the blatantly obvious, which is, you know, he'd be like, so, you know, take me through your weekend. What did you what did you do? What did you eat? What did you drink? You know?
And I went through everything, and he was like, okay. Well, yeah, that's not hell. Like, what was on the salad? Yeah. That's not healthy, dude.
Like, he that's not a healthy that's not a healthy meal. You know? So he kinda set me straight with that. The other thing he did is which was huge, it was he got me tracking.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yes, sir.
Mark Manson
And and it's coming back to line thing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right. The canned line is all. I I ate 14 cookies from the Oreo package. You know what?
Mark Manson
Yeah. You're like, well, this has protein. I think it's healthy. You know? And then you load it into your macro tracker, and you're like, oh my god.
What did I do? You know? So, so tracking was was a huge
Dr. Mark Hyman
So support, tracking, accountability Totally. Basic basic fundamental knowledge that you might not have had that you think, you know, you know, most of us, you know, you're educated. You went to college. You think Yeah. It should be kinda common common sense and common knowledge, but most people have no clue about what it takes to create health.
Mark Manson
It is I mean, I don't envy you in your industry because the the I think the the message that gets to people ends up so skewed. Like, I think the the message that gets to people is, like, I gotta do this crazy diet. I gotta, like, you know, work out 6 times a week. I gotta, like, you know, hire all these people and do all these things. And it it's actually there's just some, like, very fundamental basic things that if you if you do them every single day.
Dr. Mark Hyman
It's just consistency. Yeah.
Mark Manson
Yeah. That it kinda like, 80% of it takes care of itself.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, and you lost £65. So Yeah. I mean, it was it was
Mark Manson
that was over 5 years. So it was fits and starts and, you know
Dr. Mark Hyman
And no it was epic. So that's
Mark Manson
And and re rebounds and then, you know, back again. The thing I tell people because, you know, people always ask me. They're like, oh, what did you do? As if I did one thing. And it I will say that the the struggle the biggest struggle is the mental side.
It's it's the knowing when I was bullshitting myself, knowing when I was diluting myself, knowing, you know, knowing when I was cutting corners and being honest with myself about that and then trying to understand why I was doing those things. Like, why was I lying to myself so I could eat more pizza?
Dr. Mark Hyman
And do you have a process for that? Because, you know, most of us have extremely thick armor against
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Being able to kinda have insight about our own behavior, our own lies, and our own self deceptions. It's it's very hard to kind of turn the mirror on yourself.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
How did you do that?
Mark Manson
Again, accountability is huge. You know, having some sort of coach or trainer
Dr. Mark Hyman
Electric shock collar.
Mark Manson
Shock collar partner. You know, it it's I I gotta give credit to my wife. Like, she's much better about the food side of things than I am, and there are many, many times where she's like, you realize that's not healthy. Right? You know?
And I'm like, ah, come on. It's got some green
Dr. Mark Hyman
in it. Like, you know, it's Sure. It's mint chocolate chip ice cream. It's green.
Mark Manson
It's green. There must be a vegetable. Mint's a vegetable. Right? So, like you know, and then then I'd load it up into the tracker, and, you know, it's way more about systems than it is willpower.
Like, if you're relying on willpower, you're just kinda fucked because willpower is is it's very finite, and it comes and goes. And, but if you have the systems in place, you know, it's like if you're if the only groceries that are showing up to the house are, like, good ingredients, right, like, if the the meals that you have planned for the week are like, the macros are already counted before you plan them.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right? Just make it hard to make a mistake because you're in you change your environment. Exactly. Yeah.
Mark Manson
Exactly. You just you you just put, like, you know, you just put, like, kids' gloves on everything. Like, just make it as make it so easy a 5 year old could do it. That's me.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I think it's actually I I I I wrote a book called the 10 Day Detox Diet. In there, I talked about how behavior change happens, and part of it is, you know, really focusing on changing your default environment. So house has to be a safe zone. Like, the other night, I had a lot of stress happen and something was, like, really a big deal, and I was like, I want to try a pint of ice cream right now. And I'm like, in this and there was no ice cream in the freezer.
Yeah. And I'm like, oh, I don't know what to or I went to order online, and then it said you had to order a salt and straw. I had to order 5 pints of ice cream. And I'm like, no. I'm not gonna do it.
Not worth it.
Mark Manson
Not worth it.
Dr. Mark Hyman
But but, like, so if the home was a safe zone Yeah. You know, and you have your workout equipment, you have your tennis shoes, whatever, like, you you make it so that it's it's automatic. I think that's really important. But the, you know, the the bigger issue really is is is the sort of I would say to my patients, it's not what are you eating. It's what's eating you.
So, you know, what was driving you to that behavior, and how did you tackle that demon? Because that's the mental
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, because I went to eat, exercise. I mean, that that you know, despite all the nutrition controversies and all the the sort of diet books, it it's bay pretty basic what works. You know? I can tell you as a doctor for a year. Just eat real food.
Yeah. Move your body. Move your body. Sleep. You know?
Yeah. Know how to relax a little bit. It all works out.
Mark Manson
I noticed so and I'm I'm glad you asked that because this you know, it took probably 2 or 3 years into this process for me to even get to the point where I could, like, reasonably have an answer to that question. Mhmm. Because it was I think what what I didn't appreciate is that how unconscious like, it food is such a primal thing, and it's like such an unconsciously driven thing. Like, I never stopped. My whole life, I never stopped and thought, like, why do I crave pizza right now?
Or, like, why do I, you know, wanna have a drink? And what I noticed is that the 2 the 2 big drivers for me were anxiety and boredom, that I tended to eat junk or drink if I was bored, or I would eat junk or drink if I was anxious about something and worried about something. Yeah. And the the anxiety was actually kind of the easier thing to deal with. You know, once I was aware of it, I could, like, kinda channel it a little bit better.
The boredom was was actually harder for me because that started to get into social life and identity. Mhmm. I realized that a lot of my social life was built around food and alcohol. Yeah. And to decouple that meant I had to give up a significant part of my social life, which meant that, like, I didn't see certain friends as often.
I, you know, I I I very much I took a lot of pride. I kinda had the identity of, like, the party guy. You know, if you invited me to the wedding, I'd be the 1st on the dance floor and the last one off, and it's because I was fucking drunk. And and, like, it when I stopped drinking, I was like, I had to give that up. I'm like, okay.
I'm not the party guy. I'm not gonna be the guy who closes the bar with you every night. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm I'm I'm the guy who's gonna go home at 10:30 because he's tired.
Yeah. Yeah. And that sucked. Like, that that was there was a little bit of an ego Yeah. Death sort of thing that had to happen there.
So the the boredom was actually a much harder solve for me.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Because it's like you're you're filling empty space that you know, where you have to be with yourself.
Mark Manson
Mhmm.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and and, Well,
Mark Manson
it made me realize too, Mark, that, like, like, this was this, like, fucking hurt when I realized it. And so I was like, you know, if I need to eat and get drunk with this person to have fun, then I don't like this person. Right. Like, they're not actually my friend. That's true.
And, like, that was very upsetting to realize.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and and and that's really true. It's like, you know, because you're only as healthy as the 5 healthiest of the 5 friends you're hanging out with the most. Right? So Totally. And I think, you know, what are their behaviors?
What are their habits? So I was at a wedding, for example, this weekend, and there was no alcohol. Mhmm. It was alcohol free wedding. Yeah.
And the food was amazing. And there was yoga classes, and we danced, and we played, and we did all kinds of great stuff. But it it, you know, it it didn't require us to to kind of rely on all that stuff to actually have an extraordinary time. There were Yeah. We had, like, cake contests Yeah.
Yeah. And all kinds of fun, you know, things that people engaged in that were were really beautiful, that were bonding, that weren't about being checked out or zoned out or drunk or Or fucked up. Or fucked up. Right? Yeah.
And and and I think, you know, so for example, you could have no a dinner party at your house where you control the food, where there's no alcohol, or, you know, you have a different experience. So Yeah. I think there's there's ways that for people to kinda still kinda have the things that they care about. Right? Yes.
Social connections. And I say, well, you know, I can't go out, but maybe, you know, being in a bar every night is not your is not gonna end up well for you in your life.
Mark Manson
It it's it is true. It but I I will say that that transition that was one of the most difficult things. It's interesting. I did a YouTube video a couple years ago about quitting drinking because I I Did you completely quit? I completely quit.
I I originally quit as part of the weight loss.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
You know, I was just gonna do a couple months to lose some extra pounds, and it was such a profound shift mentally, emotionally, physically, that I just kept going, and I I haven't I I now wonder if maybe I was, like, a highly functional alcoholic
Dr. Mark Hyman
for a
Mark Manson
number of years. I don't I don't know the answer to that question, but I did a I did a YouTube video maybe a year ago about quitting, and, you know, it went viral and got a few 1,000,000 views. And the most common comment was from people saying, was from former alcoholic saying, I quit drinking. It's the best thing I ever did. I I've I still have not found a social life outside of it.
Like, it's the it's the one thing I miss. Is, like, I used to have all these friends. I used to go out with them all the time. I'd go to the bar. I knew half the
Dr. Mark Hyman
people there. Yeah.
Mark Manson
And they don't know. It's very hard to recreate that outside of it. And I part of it for me too that I've noticed is that, like, my my purse without alcohol, my personality is different. I'm much more introverted. I my interests are narrower, which was complete like, a total curveball.
Completely unexpected. It actually caused marriage problems. Really? Because I I stopped enjoying things that I used to enjoy that had nothing to do with alcohol.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I
Mark Manson
and I became interested in other things. So we used to go to a lot of shows, and I kinda
Dr. Mark Hyman
You mean, like concerts? Or
Mark Manson
Shows, concerts, plays, musicals. And I kinda realized You didn't like them
Dr. Mark Hyman
unless you were drunk?
Mark Manson
Yeah. I was like, I I think I I think I used to just go have a couple whiskeys and and think I liked it. You know? Or I'm much more into, like, physical activity now. And and, like, I don't really enjoy sitting around and watching a TV show, binging a TV show like the way I used to.
Yeah. You know? So it's just like yeah. It just it it disrupts.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You just have to recreate, though. I mean, you have to recreate do. Yeah. That that and then because there's fans who you wanna do fun stuff with, like go on a ski trip or 100%. Go hiking or 100%.
Go play pickleball or which is a big thing in Austin. Yeah.
Mark Manson
Yeah. It's everywhere. But I guess I guess what I'm doing I I'm just putting out a PSA to people. Like, this is an unexpected thing that happened. Like, this was actually a very unexpected challenge related to this Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
To to the health journey. Yeah. Yeah. Because you do. If you if you drop the friends and the people who are actually harming you in your life by, you know, kind of encouraging the engaging behaviors that, oh, let's go eat that sheet cake for tonight and watch those, you know, 6 hours of Netflix.
Yeah. That's not exactly good for you. And and and it does leave a gap, and I I can imagine it's painful. But but on the other side of it, I think it's really about being intentional in terms of how you re rethink what what's possible. I I wanna kinda take a little bit of direction, challenge you a little bit because, you know, your your your call shtick is like, I'm not really into self help.
It's all kinda bullshit. And, you know, like, there's you know, it all gives the wrong messages. And I think rather than being against self help, you're just saying the typical help self help advice isn't that helpful. And and then you your work is really is about self help, but in a different way with kind of a contrarian view. And even for example, you have, like, these 5 ideas that can change your life, which are which sound super depressing and are kind of like, you know, like, human sucks, so try to suck less or pain is inevitable.
You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, suffering is optional. There there there's embedded in these five things, though, there's a lot of wisdom.
Sure. And it's kind of tongue in cheek, and it it kinda gets you to take a funny look at at the at the sort of the beliefs that we're attached to that keep us suffering.
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right? So can you kinda unpack that a little bit and and kind of tell us really how we can help ourselves as opposed to the the current sort of positive, everything's great. And if you just meditate and say enough mantras and, you know, have enough Have
Mark Manson
your kale
Dr. Mark Hyman
smoothie in the morning. Yeah. There's then everything will be perfect. Right.
Mark Manson
It it it so I I I often joke that, I write self help for people who hate self help. So it is still self help,
Dr. Mark Hyman
but it
Mark Manson
is you know, it it's kind of the contrarian self help. So those 5 ideas, I'm I'm I might get them wrong. You know, first one is humans suck, try to suck less. I think this there's in traditional self help, there's kind of this false idea that, we're born perfect, and we are corrupted through the tragedy of life and that it's it's about getting back to our, you know, healing our inner child and getting back to our perfect nature and
Dr. Mark Hyman
all
Mark Manson
this stuff. And it's like actually, if you, look at any biology or evolutionary psychology, it's like humans are a fucking mess, and we are an incomplete project. And, a lot of our our suffering and pain and and imperfections are very much baked in by evolution. Like, they're they're a feature, not a bug of our psychology. And so we just need to accept that and accept that we are fundamentally imperfect.
Our minds are imperfect. Our bodies are imperfect, and, we're just doing the best that we can to, like, adapt to our environment. Right? So, I think that's a much healthier starting place of, like, okay. How can you adapt better to your environment or be a more, adaptable and and functional human being rather than, like, rediscovering your inner perfection or whatever?
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, it's kinda like the wabi sabi idea. Right? Like, the imperfection in, the perfection and imperfection.
Mark Manson
Imperfection. Totally.
Dr. Mark Hyman
The the thing was pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
Mark Manson
Suffering is optional. So this this is this is just like Buddhism 101, that life is pain, essentially, that, any sort of attachment or desire is there's a pain associated with it. And the minute you you you deny that that pain exists or try to avoid that pain or try to perfect pretend that that pain shouldn't be there, you that's when you create suffering. The, there's a allegory from the Buddha that I love, which is the, it's called the 2 arrows. So Yeah.
He said that when whenever you were struck by an arrow, you're actually struck struck twice. So there's the the first strike is the arrow piercing your skin and and the physical pain that's associated with it. But the second pain is the when you ask yourself, why was I the one struck with the arrow? What did I do to deserve this?
Dr. Mark Hyman
Psychological. Yeah. It's kind of like a cold plunge, right? Yeah. You get in, and it's a it's a sensation, right?
It's it's a sensation, and and there's an idea we attach that sensation that is bad Yes. And that it's gonna hurt us. I mean, if you're standing there long enough, yes, you'll die of hypothermia, but but, basically, I took one yesterday night, and I've got me there. I'm like, okay. This is a sensation.
It is. And my my choice to suffer from the sensation is a choice. Exactly. Right? And Exactly.
And I think that's a really empowering thing because, you know, whatever happens to your life, we we I mean, I think I do this. I mean, most of this, you you you end up in the sense of of sort of, a deeper level of suffering than you need to because you're stuck in sort of a belief about the meaning you attach to what happens.
Mark Manson
Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So, oh, you know, my ex wife, Mia, who you met and, you know, we split up, and you wrote a book called Love is Not Enough. We deeply loved each other, but, you know, we just weren't a fit. Yeah. And and, you know, and I ended up having all these beliefs that were causing me to to suffer. I mean, it was painful to split up, but the suffering went on for a lot longer than needed because I held on to all these beliefs about it.
I wasn't good enough. I'm never gonna find anybody again. I'm too old. I'm whatever. You know?
Like, I she was the person who had the best, you know, relationship with my my life to to date. You know? Like, all these things kind of were and I'm never gonna find this again. And Yeah. All these things kinda caused this unnecessary suffering, which turned out to be completely untrue, and I would have saved myself so much misery if I just kinda realized that.
Mark Manson
You just stopped telling yourself stories.
Dr. Mark Hyman
But it's it's the meaning we attach to things and events that caused the suffering. And then the question is what causes us to attach that meaning, and how do we get to the root of that and the beliefs that are underneath that meaning we create, the meaning making machines that we are.
Mark Manson
What's what's also so dangerous is that we we often forget that we like, you spun up a bunch of stories about a painful event in your life. We all we all do that. It's human nature. But what mo what happens most of the time, especially when we're young and we haven't developed enough self awareness, is that we spin up these stories that cause us to suffer and then we forget that they're stories. We just live with them for decades assuming that that's just that's just the way the world is.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right. It get it gets written in ink, not pencil.
Mark Manson
Exactly. Exactly. And we and so, you know, I think the kind of the fundamental thing that therapy does is help people realize that their stories are just that, stories.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And breaking that pattern is what sets you free. Like, it's it's it's getting free of those those constraining beliefs, the limiting beliefs that actually are are the reason you suffer. It's not the event itself. Totally. Gabriel Mate has been on the podcast.
Said it's not the trauma that causes the problem. It's the meaning we make from what happens to us. Right? Absolutely. So the same event can happen to 2 different people and have totally different effects on them throughout their whole life because of the meaning we attach to it, and that's a very powerful thing.
I actually once heard this anthropologist talk about these societies where they had really incredible cultures, where there was a lot of love, and they're highly functional, where it kind of worked, and they had 4 great criteria that she noticed they all adhere to. 1st was to to, show up. Like, everybody showed up. 2 is to be present. Those aren't that hard, but harder than ever now.
These days, it's it's pretty hard. Yeah. Our attention robbing culture. Yeah. The third was, and this is kinda goes along with your honesty thing.
Tell the truth without blame or judgment. So that's a harder one to do, but telling the truth is hard, and then doing without blaming somebody or judging somebody is also really hard.
Mark Manson
Extremely. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And the 4th one is the hardest, and this goes to the suffering part, which is be open to the outcome. So if you told this woman who you thought was amazing that you met in Brazil that is now your wife, that gee, you weren't really that available in this moment. You kinda liked her, but, you know, you you had to be open to the outcome. She goes in, you know Right. See you later, buddy.
Go you know, that's you're a jerk and Yeah. Or she she was like, oh my god. I fell in love with this guy. He told the truth. You know?
Yeah. But you didn't know which one was gonna happen.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And the and the reality is that when you tell the truth, you always meet reality as opposed to some fantasy or imaginary thing that's happening that's not really true. Yeah. And you have a much more authentic life because you're actually meeting what is as opposed to what you're trying to construct to be or how you're gonna try to control that outcome. So Yeah. It's really powerful.
So I think I think getting getting that is important. The next the next, of the 5, rules here is is everything you believe will one day fail you, This is how you grow.
Mark Manson
This is very similar to what
Dr. Mark Hyman
sounds very freaking depressing. Yeah.
Mark Manson
This but this is very similar to to what you were just talking about. Right? It's like
Dr. Mark Hyman
You're happy or you're growing.
Mark Manson
I mean, every belief is is a story, and every story is incomplete and slightly inaccurate. And, really, what knowledge is and growth is is just replacing, inaccurate stories with slightly less inaccurate stories. You know? It's it's the the stories that you and I believe today that have helped us so much get through our past struggles will one day fail and create our future struggles,
Dr. Mark Hyman
and then we'll have to update
Mark Manson
our stories again. And so that's just kind of
Dr. Mark Hyman
Then we're gonna need conscious software updates?
Mark Manson
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. We just need to be patched all the time. But I I truly believe that that is like, you never figure out the capital t truth in life.
You just become slightly less wrong.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm. And and so having this kind of perspective, you think, you know, does it help you avoid the the pain of the disappointment of failure?
Mark Manson
I think so because failure just illuminates the areas of your life that you're you were wrong, that your stories were inaccurate so you can update them. But, also, I think it's it's just a much better starting point, to assume that everything you believe in your life is already wrong and that you they just need to be updated with better, more accurate versions of the story. But, also, when you believe that you don't you're not gonna hold on to a story as, like, being, either irrefutable, capital t true because that's when the real suffering starts is when you, like, refuse to update one of your stories or one of your beliefs because you're like, no. This has to be true. This is like, there's nothing else can be more right than this.
And now now you're you that forces you to lie.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So how do you update the software? Because, you know, it's really hard to do that. Mhmm. And and are there practical ways that you found to actually help people do this? Because it sounds good.
We're talking about it. Sure. Great. You know, everything you can is gonna fail. You gotta update your beliefs.
You know, you're gonna grow as a result. You know, we've all experienced that, but it's usually with a lot of misery. Yeah. So you're talking about somehow recognizing this is gonna take the misery out of it and help you just kinda, you know, seize an opportunity. Like, I think, you know, I I I found that, you know, even though things are rough sometimes when shitty things happen, I go, okay.
This is a moment for me to pay attention. Yeah. And I can either keep repeating the same stupid shit or update my update my software program. Yeah.
Mark Manson
Yeah. I think dialogue with smart and open people who care about you, and who don't judge you, I think, is is absolutely crucial. Because it's like the thing about stories is that they they they're they're verbal in nature. Like, you at the very least, I think journaling or, like, writing out your thoughts and feelings on a subject and and kind of playing with what could be true or what might not be true. I think that's kind of a minimum starting place because you you need to play with the language around your beliefs and and discover the language around
Dr. Mark Hyman
your beliefs. Yeah.
Mark Manson
But I think having really good, open, compassionate people in your life is is is absolutely fundamental. Ideally, it's a a a partner, a friend, a family member, but at at a minimum, it's a therapist or a coach, you know, somebody who can kinda look at your story and be like, well, you know, like, what if this was true and not that. Right? Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's it's really it's so true. Like, I I I think this is critical because if you don't have a process, it's hard to get there. Mhmm. And the first process you mentioned was something is actually I did because after, you know, I left my last marriage, I was like, I'm never gonna do this again, and I don't care what I have to do.
If you meet never meet with anybody again.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I and I work with a coach, and what I had she made me do was every day, I had to write down all the stupid shit my head was saying. My my lower self. Like, just all the drivel that goes on between my ears that I just had to be fully honest about that I embarrassed to even say out loud, nonetheless, you know, write it down Yeah. And send it to somebody to read. I had to do that and religiously kind of investigate my own beliefs and thinking and and lower self.
And then at the same time, I had to try, which wasn't always easy, to call on my higher self Mhmm. To tell a different story Yep. About the truth. Yeah. To try to get to the truth.
And sometimes it was my higher lower self, which is the trickster that thinks it's the higher self. Yeah. Your lower self that thinks it's the higher self.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. You know, I do like breath work and yoga, and I'm enlightened or whatever. You know? And, I mean, listen. I'm a I was a yoga teacher before I was a doctor, so I'm not just a yoga teacher.
So just to be clear, but I love yoga.
Mark Manson
Happens a lot.
Dr. Mark Hyman
It happens a lot. But but the second thing was really, an addition doing that was was I recently started working with an, another coach, and I and I I asked for a 360, which is, for those who don't know what it is, it's basically I pick 10 people in my life from work, personal life, and they it was all anonymous, and they got to talk to my coach, and they got to completely unload all their perceptions of me, their views of me, their beliefs about me, their experiences, interactions with me, what it meant, how it occurred to them. And, you know, it's it's it was amazing. It was was a little bit painful for me, actually. Yeah.
I I didn't realize how I occurred to other people.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and one of the feedback I got was that people didn't feel like I was interested in them. Interesting. And and I started and they they felt like I was more kind of obsessed with myself, and and I would talk about myself, and and and they were right. And I and I and I and I kinda looked at what that was, and I kinda went all the way back into when I was about 18, and I had I really had no friends growing up. I mean, I was one kid that I think had was autistic that was my friend.
You know? You know, like Asperger's or something. Yeah. And and another guy who was you know, we played cards and stuff, but it it it basically, I was pretty lonely and isolated and disconnected, and and I thought nobody liked me because I wasn't interesting.
Mark Manson
Mhmm.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and then I decided that in order to be liked and be accepted, I had to become interesting. And what I realized it did was it made me talk more about myself in a way that made me look good. Yeah. I went on this great trip. I had this great experience.
Look who I met. You know? Look Yeah. This fun shit I'm doing. Whatever.
Right? Yeah. And it really, like, occurred to me that I I really, was very I'm very interested in people, and I really do care, and I have relationships where that shows up. But, you know, I realized that I needed to focus on being interested
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
More than interesting. Yeah. But that's what was driving, and I wouldn't have really I wouldn't have really known that unless I'd gotten all this feedback from all these people that I care about and love. And it was really helpful in changing that belief.
Mark Manson
That's a great example of, yeah, updating a story. It's funny. I I did a seminar years years ago, where they had us do this exercise, which has stuck with me ever since. Like, whenever you have kinda, like, that negative dribble, you know, or just self loathing going on in your head.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I call my inner asshole. The inner asshole.
Mark Manson
So it was a really cool exercise. I I honestly, I forget who who taught it to me or where it came from. But, it's basically, you take 3 sheets of paper. 1st sheet of paper, you just write out all of those horrible things that you're feeling about yourself, or it could it could work with somebody else as well if you're really pissed off at somebody else. So you just first sheet of paper is just like all the negative awful shit.
2nd sheet of paper is you write all of the counter arguments and the positive things in the, like, the the sunny side and, like, you know, hey. He didn't mean it or you didn't mean it. You have good intentions. You know, you're just you're misunderstood. You're actually very compassionate, all this stuff.
Like, right now
Dr. Mark Hyman
take the opposite position. Take the complete Byron Katie talks about. Right?
Mark Manson
Take the complete opposite position. And then the third sheet of paper is the truth. That's good. That's good. That's good.
Try to try to find where the truth is between the first two sheets.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's good. I mean, in a way, what you're saying to people is, like, inquire about yourself in a in a disciplined regimented way, and 2, find people who you can who love you Mhmm. Who know you, who you can ask to be fully honest with you, and you will you can say to them, like, I really want your feedback, and no matter how difficult it might be, I'm here to listen to it. I'm not gonna react. Yeah.
And I'm gonna just try to receive it. And that's a scary thing to do. It is. But it it's so freaking liberating, because then you go, wow. I didn't know that I was acting like that or doing that or something like this or
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
People thought I was this or that. I'm like, you know and and, of course, you know, people are gonna project whatever they project and meaning whatever they make on you based on their own sets of beliefs and attitudes, and I think I've learned that a long time ago. You've gotta be cautious about when people give you feedback because it's coming from their own, you know, stuff. Right? And and that that's another thing that happened when I was 18.
I I I was backpacking in Canada, and I was I was by myself, and I was I was sleeping on the the river, camping out by in the spray river in Banff and working at a gas station, walking 6 miles each way back and forth to work every day to pump gas and get some groceries. And, I found this other camp with this guy, and one's an older British guy who, was just kinda mean, and he would just make fun of me and kind of insult me and ridicule me, and, and I and I was it was devastating. And I and I realized in that moment, it was like an epiphany. I said, okay. Either when people are doing that, it's because it's their shit that they're projecting onto me, or there may be something I should look at, and I should be grateful for that feedback even though it comes in a nasty package.
Right. And then it's an opportunity for me to look at myself and grow. And that really helped me kind of shift, and not be so much at the whim of what everybody was thinking. Mhmm. But but but this process is is really I really love it.
Okay. Next next one is is something called, you deserve happiness. I'm sorry.
Mark Manson
You don't deserve happiness.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Let's redo that. The the next one of your, you know, 55, simple ideas to change your life is you do not deserve happiness. In fact, you don't deserve anything.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That doesn't seem right.
Mark Manson
Well, the the most I would say the most you know, you and I were having this whole conversation around stories, the way we spin up stories,
Dr. Mark Hyman
the way we suffer because of our stories, the way we need to update our stories. Mhmm.
Mark Manson
I would say the most common story that our brain naturally spins up is you deserve this or you don't deserve that. Right? And it and it goes both ways. It goes you know? And I I think this it tends the the strength of the deserving story tends to be proportional to the intensity of the emotion.
So it's like the more we're hurt, the more more intense the the story we tell ourselves of either I didn't deserve this or I did deserve this or this person deserves that. And the truth is is that in most cases like, the deserving thing is a it's a very like, I think in in a legal construct, it makes a lot of sense. Right? It's like you rob a gas station, then you deserve some sort of punishment. But on an emotional basis
Dr. Mark Hyman
If you rob a a a drugstore in in California, you you don't deserve punishment. Is that how the law is now? Well, I
Mark Manson
don't know what the fuck the law
Dr. Mark Hyman
is these days. You shoplift. You know? Yeah. It's fine.
Mark Manson
You know? So I I the point I'm making is that there's there's, like, a legal level that you can make that there's the deserving story or the deserving argument. But I think on a personal level, it's just over the years, what I've the conclusion I've come to is is to just eliminate as many of these deserving stories as possible. Entitlement. Yeah.
Because it's you you can if you spin up stories saying that you deserve great things, sure, that can motivate you, can make you feel good, but it can also make you entitled. It can make you narcissistic. It can make you, you know, it can justify a lot of bad behavior towards other people. If you spin up stories saying that you don't deserve things, well, now you're minimizing yourself. You're limiting yourself.
You're making yourself more insecure. You know, it's like, how about just don't have the story in the first place? Like, do I deserve to be happy? I don't know. Right.
Like, some days I'm happy. Some days I'm not. Do I deserve that? I don't who the fuck knows? Right?
Yeah. Does it matter? No. Just do do the do the good thing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I mean, I think I think, you know, it reminds me of when I was in college. I don't know. At least all these stories are coming through when we're talking, so I don't know. I'd have your We're revisiting your your your forlorn youth.
No. It was really, like, form things. And I was sitting I was sitting on the floor of my best friend's apartment, like, get a little, you know, room in in college. And he's he you know, we were both kinda hippies and, you know, backpacking. He says, Mark, you know, if you haven't placed sleep, if you have some clothes to wear and you have some food to eat, everything else is gravy.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I'm like, you know, you're kinda right. Yeah. And and and so anything else that comes is just, a gift or a blessing and not an entitlement.
Mark Manson
Totally. And and it's I think that's It's
Dr. Mark Hyman
very liberating.
Mark Manson
It's very important too because this kinda gets back to the condiment thing is that and this gets back to the the reference point thing, is that human psychology is such that our reference point for what is good or bad is is always changing, and it's always shifting upward. Like, the more our life improves, the more our baseline of what we expect of ourselves increases. Right? And so that's a perfect example of, like, you know, you've got food. You got shelter.
You know, you're healthy. You're young. Like, why do you need anything else? Whining? Yeah.
Why are you whining? Like, why do you why do you feel like you deserve anything else? Right? And and it's, again, it's it's the deserving story is a dangerous story because often our set points of what is a good life and what is bad life are just completely irrational and based on status games, power struggles. Yeah.
Silly frivolous shit that doesn't really matter.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's so true. Okay. Your last, you know, your last simple idea to change your life is everything you love will one day be lost. This is what makes life meaningful.
Yeah. And, you know, I've I've wrote a book called Young Forever about longevity, and and then the research for the book, there's a lot of scientists talking about this idea of longevity escape velocity, which means that the science will continue to evolve so fast that we'll keep extending our life faster than our rate of aging, which means we will never die. Yeah. And and, you know, I'm actually having dinner tonight with Brian Johnson
Mark Manson
How funny.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Who his who his whole whose whole, mission in life is don't die. Literally, he's got a whole brand called don't die. And when I think about that, I mean, yes, I would love to have another 60 I don't know. A 100 years of incredibly vigorous, healthy life
Mark Manson
Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And do whatever I wanna do. As long as I can be heli skiing at a 100, I'm good. But it's that sense that it's all gonna go away that makes it so precious. Like, every morning I wake up with my wife Yeah. And I'm, like, so excited to see her.
And every day, I'm like, oh my god. This is a gift because I know how precious and fleeting this is, and one day, it's not gonna be there. Right. And so it makes me value and and savor every moment in a way that, you know, actually makes life way more enjoyable.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So I'm I don't like the idea of not dying.
Mark Manson
I don't I'm glad to hear you say that. I'm actually curious because I I
Dr. Mark Hyman
I wanna be long long lived and healthy, but I I I wanna I think I wanna die.
Mark Manson
I I I'm on the same I'm a 100% on the same page. Like, I would be I'd love to live to 200. That sounds great, but, like, you know, at some point, I wanna get off the boat. And Yeah. And it's and it's because of this.
It's because I I meaning and value is driven by scarcity. And if as soon as something stops being scarce, we stop appreciating, and it stops feeling meaningful. And I so I just I don't think our our psychological mechanisms are, like, built to live in a post scarce existence. Like, I feel like this is so this is the this is when, like, the writer in me starts getting really excited. I start imagining, like, a sci fi novel of, like, a person who, like, realistically can't die.
Like, to me, that it's it's it seems to me that that would be an incredibly bleak existence. Yeah. Like, nothing would seem worthwhile. Nothing would seem important. No relationships would seem worth like, he that person would not feel inclined to speak to anybody because everybody you speak to is gonna die at some point.
So why create a relationship if you're just gonna lose it, and there's just gonna be an infinite amount of future relationships. Like, there's no there's nothing special or unique about that. So I think, like, it it calls into question is, like, what what becomes scarce if death is solved, and can anything be meaningful in, like, a post death existence? And I'm not sure that it can.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. We don't know. Who knows? Maybe maybe. Do do you do
Mark Manson
you think I'm curious. Do you think that, a longevity escape velocity is possible?
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, listen. If if you talk to my grandmother who was born in 1900 and you told her there were gonna be men walking on the moon and we're gonna have these super computers in her pockets that, you know, had all the features that our iPhone has
Mark Manson
Mhmm.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That we could interact with an intelligent source like chat gbt that would tell us anything about anything
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
In 3 seconds, you know, she would probably go, there's no freaking way that's possible. Yeah. I mean, there weren't even cars or telephones or phones or electricity or toy flushed toilets when she was born. Right? Yeah.
And and and so I don't know is the answer. There there are certain things scientifically that I've talked about and then they're in my book, certain, you know, things that allow us to do epigenetic reprogramming, essentially taking your cells that are old and reprogramming back to a younger you Mhmm. Through something called Yamanaka factors, and there's a lot of research going on around this. Aging research is in its infancy around longevity because it's it's wasn't even considered something worthy of research or study.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
The only reason it's getting any attention now is because a lot of billionaires are just really wanting to live a long time. So they're like Yeah.
Mark Manson
They don't wanna die.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So Or they or or they just wanna, like, figure it out. And so Yeah. There's, like, literally 1,000,000,000 of dollars, you know Yeah. From Google and Alta Slab and Jeff Bezos and Sam Altman and all these guys are just pouring 1,000,000,000 of dollars, and which I think is great because we're learning so much. But I I think, it may happen.
But listen. If I could if I could, you know, take a a a pill or get a gene in insert into me, that would, take me back to, you know, my mid thirties when I, you know, when I was the peak of my mental and physical performance.
Mark Manson
Yeah. Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Like That would be great. Yeah. That'd be if I could if I could you know, my biological age is 39 now, but my back age is, like, a 139. Yeah. So if I could get my back to be back to 39, I'd be great.
I'm with you there. You know, I'm I'm all for all that stuff, but I think there. But I think it's more about the meaning, and and I think the values we have. So, you know, just to kinda close-up a little bit, I I I think, you know, I wanna put you on the spot a little bit because, you know, your work is about kind of poking fun at all the positive psychology self help stuff and how how it's not really that helpful. But you're not against people actually thinking about how to create a philosophy and and a values that, it creates meaning in their life that that's different from the typical self help advice.
So how do we how do we, as human beings, start to create kind of a a value system for ourself that we can live through and with and in that allows us to be fully expressed. Because because for me, you know, I don't know what your philosophy is on this, but my my belief is that is that, you know, our souls, came here to get free. Mhmm. You know, that we we came here to be fully expressed human beings in the purest expression. You know, like like like, the Dalai Lama, I don't know if he's enlightened or not enlightened, but, like, I was at a conference with him on longevity, and he was on stage, and he was all these muckety mucks and Nobel Prize winners and this and that.
And he just was, like, looked around. He's like, nuh-uh. I gotta pee. And he, like, gets up. He, like, runs off the stage and goes and pees.
You know? Like, not trying to be anybody, pretend to be anything. Yeah. And just fully expressed present human being.
Mark Manson
Yeah. I mean, I I that that question about, like, what do we value, what is worth improving, I feel like that's the question of our time. And and I think as you accurately put it, you know, my my goal isn't to overthrow the self help industry or debunk the self help industry. It's really just to, like, realign it around healthier questions. You know?
And and analogous to what we're talking about with, like, the the diet stuff, it's like, you know, I most of what gets sold in my industry is the equivalent of a fad diet. And and I'm trying to be the guy who's like, no. No. No. It's actually just really basic questions that philosophers and and religions have been asking for 2000 years that we all need to ask ourselves.
Yeah. And even if you're not religious, even if you don't wanna meditate, like, tons of hours, like, these are really simple questions that I think in this day and age, we should all be asking ourselves and and thinking really hard about.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And you didn't pull us out of your ass. I mean, you you you you were deeply steeped in the research around a lot of this. And you Yeah. Talk about a lot of the studies that reflect, the underlying reasoning behind your thinking, like the marshmallow test or the Stanford Prison Experiment or studies by Marty Sigman about learned helplessness or the happiness research by Daniel Kahneman, the paradox of choice by Barry Schwartz, so flow theory and all these attachment theory and the list goes on, but you're you're not just kind of just randomly like kind of being a dick and saying all you self help people are idiots.
But it but it is there's a lot of great science, and often the science contradicts common sense.
Mark Manson
It does. Right? It does. It does. It's it's, we are again, this comes back to, you know, humans suck, try to suck less.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Like, it's
Mark Manson
it's it's we're not optimized for for real like, truth. We're optimized for self preservation.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
And part of that self preservation is ego preservation. Yeah. And, so being aware of those mechanisms, is is extremely important to to maintain our mental health and and our our happiness. Yeah. So, so, yeah, and I just try to find fun and creative ways to to express those ideas to people.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, it's really kinda cool in this moment in history is is is the psychedelic revolution.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, there was this psychedelic revolution in the sixties, and actually, the CIA was responsible for it. They were literally doing I don't even know the story, but No. There's a great book called I mean, a movie called The Magic Bus, and it was basically about Ken Kesey, who was a who had one from the cuckoo's nest, and he got a grant to go write this book at Stanford in in Palo Alto. And, he didn't have any money, and then there was ongoing experiments there by the CIA on LSD. Oh, shit.
And so they would pay him to go take acid, and other people take acid, and then they'd put him in a lab, and they'd watch what happens. He's like, man, this stuff is great. And so he basically, you know, basically thought it was the next greatest thing. So he took a bus around the country and basically gave everybody LSD and went to, you know, out met Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, who became Ram Dass and then Yeah. Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg and then came back and, you know, kind of created the liquid jucalate acid test in in Menlo Park where the Grateful Dead basically was the house band, and they had
Mark Manson
I didn't realize it started that way.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It was basically a CIA started the psychedelic revolution and and the trade fighting. And and and now we're undergoing the 2nd renaissance where there's real research going on and a lot of the things you're talking about are are based on and the suffering that we have is based on the beliefs that we have about our ego and our small self and the survivalist, sort of software that's programmed into us. For sure. It has it has us as separate entities, as separate beings that have to protect and defend ourself and have to lie and steal, do whatever the hell we have to do to get ahead and to make sure we don't die.
Right? But psychedelics are really an interesting compound because set of compounds because they they basically shut off the ego. Yeah. It's what they do. Like, when they look at brains of meditators who've been meditating for 40 years on MRI, and they look at brains of people who are on psychedelics, the same part of the brain gets shut off, which is this ego part that is called the default mode network.
Mark Manson
Yep.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I'm actually having Michael Pollan on tomorrow
Mark Manson
Oh, cool.
Dr. Mark Hyman
On the podcast. Nice. Well, not tomorrow. You guys listening? It's not really tomorrow.
It's just tomorrow I'm recording it. Yeah. Yeah. Mark gets how it goes. Anyway, it's it's to me, it's really exciting because it's it's a way to shortcut a lot of the the suffering that people have, and we're seeing it as a far more effective treatment for depression, for anxiety, for PTSD, for all kinds of of, addiction, many, many things that people are suffering with on a mental level that prevent them from actually even being able Yeah.
To get to do the things you're talking about. So I think I I love your your, kind of, actually optimistic nihilistic philosophy. Yeah. That's good
Mark Manson
about it. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I like that combined with some of the new tools and Yeah. And treatments that are gonna be available that really help people get free. And that's that's really, I think, to me, what what your work was been about was about, jeez, you know, all of these things that people are trying to get free and be happy, they don't freaking work.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, yeah, people are selling a lot of books, but the reason your book caught on is because it it hit a chord in people that they kinda realized it was all BS, and they need to think about it differently. So it's it's just it's so great that you're out there doing this. You you you you you didn't mean to be you, you know.
Mark Manson
Do any of us.
Dr. Mark Hyman
No. But and you kinda you guys side you guys sideways a little bit, caught up in it, and I'm glad to see you back healthy and fit and looking amazing. I I would love, you know, to to help people learn how they can kinda connect more to your work.
Mark Manson
Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, there's your book, obviously, the the subtle art of not giving a fuck. There's your other book, which is Everything is Fucked Yeah. But it actually has a hopeful title in it as well, which It's a book about hope. Yeah. It's a book about hope.
You know, it's like, okay. Everything's fucked, but let's be hopeful. But you also have a lot of online content, Mark, manson.net. But you've got courses and podcasts. And so tell us where where people can learn more how to kinda get into what you're doing.
Sure.
Mark Manson
So, obviously, the books I have a podcast called The Subtle Art Not Giving a Fuck podcast, comes out every Wednesday, and, a free new free newsletter every Monday morning. I just share it's called your next breakthrough, and I just share a a couple ideas, a question, and a challenge for all all the readers, each Monday. And then I share I invite readers to send their experiences from the challenge in, and then we post them in the next Monday's newsletter. And so we've we're up over a 1000000 people now. We've had amazing.
We've had over 11,000 breakthroughs. So check it out. It's free newsletter. Just go markmanson.net. It's
Dr. Mark Hyman
right there. Midwife for transformation. I love that. Okay. So last question is, what are you most excited about now in your life?
Mark Manson
So I'm doing I'm actually doing a series of kinda documentary style YouTube videos around, the intersection of culture and mental health. So we've shot 4 of them. We're gonna start releasing them. I don't know when this is coming out, but we're gonna start releasing them in October of this year. Yeah.
So it's just out in Hungary. Hungary has the most alcoholics per capita in the world.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Really?
Mark Manson
So we did a whole investigation of, like, what what are the historical and cultural reasons behind that. Portugal has the highest diagnosis.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Causes alcoholism? Paprika.
Mark Manson
It's all the goulash. Goulash.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Who knew?
Mark Manson
Portugal has the highest rate of anxiety disorders in the world. So we we went to Lisbon and spent a week there and talked to a bunch of psychiatrists, Portuguese psychiatrists.
Dr. Mark Hyman
They have those fried donuts that everybody eats to make them. I love how your mind just immediately goes to food. You're you're you're raised just immediately. They're like, what do they eat? Yeah.
Mark Manson
And then we've already posted 1, of South Korea. South Korea has the highest, suicide rate in the developed world, so we did one on that as well.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So you this is like the opposite of the blue zones. These are the, like, the gray zones.
Mark Manson
Yeah. Well, it's you know, every every culture I mean, everywhere has its mental health issues. Right? Every country has its mental health crisis, but it what's interesting is that it it manifests in different ways in different cultures. So, what's so exciting about this project is is just going and and trying to understand why it manifests in this way in this country.
Like, what is it about the the history, the politics, the economics?
Dr. Mark Hyman
And you're figuring it out, and then and then are you hoping to kind of provide insights about how they can get some relief?
Mark Manson
I I mean, I developed theories, and and and, ultimately, it's like it there are practical takeaways for everybody. Right? So, you know, in the case of South Korea, there the the wars that happened throughout the 20th century generated an in in like, a pressure cook cooker of a culture that resulted in this this, like, mental health crisis. And so it's like it it people can draw parallels to their own life. Right?
Because it's like we all have pressures on us for certain things, and there's all like, we all have traumas or catastrophes in our own lives. So, you know, ultimately, the goal is to give people takeaways. But for me, it's just as, like, a psych nerd and somebody loves to travel. It's just been, like, so
Dr. Mark Hyman
much fun. That's so much fun. Oh, I love that.
Mark Manson
I love it.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I love it. It's like, let me go on a trip around the world and look at people's mental health and do cool shit about it. Exactly. I actually wanna create a create a show like that. Race who I called, you know, you know, Food is Medicine Show where I go around the world and and, like, kinda Anthony Bourdain meets doctor Hyman.
Yeah. That'd be great. It's, I I, I'm excited about thinking about how we kinda show what's going on in the world and people learn because Food
Mark Manson
wise. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, just America's so ethnocentric in every particular way. So Yeah. I think half I think more than half the population doesn't even have a passport.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So, Mark, it's really great to have you on the podcast. I could talk to you forever. Yeah. I can think we'll continue talking for a long time.
Mark Manson
Forever, maybe.
Dr. Mark Hyman
If we
Mark Manson
solve if we solve in in a in a if we get longevity
Dr. Mark Hyman
If everybody's thin and happy, then we don't have any work to do.
Mark Manson
Yeah. We
Dr. Mark Hyman
just sit on the beach in Malibu and and watch the sunset. Works for me, man. Alright. Well, thanks for being here. And everybody check out Mark's work, and, thanks for listening to the podcast.
Thanks for listening today. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends and family. Leave a comment on your own best practices on how you upgrade your health and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And follow me on all social media channels at doctor Mark Hyman, and we'll see you next time on the doctor's pharmacy. I'm always getting questions about my favorite books, podcasts, gadgets, supplements, recipes, and lots more.
And now you can have access to all of this information by signing up for my free Mark's Picks newsletter at doctorhyman.comforward/markspicks. I promise I'll only email you once a week on Fridays, and I'll never share your email address or send you anything else besides my recommendations. These are the things that helped me on my health journey, and I hope they'll help you too. Again, that's doctor hyman.comforward/marxpicks. Thank you again, and we'll see you next time on the doctor's pharmacy.
This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center and my work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health where I'm the chief medical officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guest opinions, and neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services.
Now, if you're looking for your help in your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner. You can come see us at the Ultra Wellness Center in Lenox, Massachusetts. Just go to ultra wellness center dot com. If you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner near you, you can visit ifm.org and search find a practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who is trained, who's a licensed health care practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health.
Keeping this podcast free is part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to express gratitude to the sponsors that made today's podcast possible.
Coming up on this episode of The Doctor's Farmacy.
Mark Manson
And I think this is a problem with a lot of people who are very unhealthy. My idea of, like, a healthy meal was just anything with a vegetable in it. You know, when I drank tonight, I only had 2 drinks instead of 5, so that's healthy.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So, like, it so, you know,
Mark Manson
it's just, like, your definition
Dr. Mark Hyman
like half a piece instead of a whole piece.
Mark Manson
Exactly. Healthy.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Before we jump into today's episode, I'd like to note that while I wish I could help everyone via my personal practice, there's simply not enough time for me to do this at this scale. And that's why I've been busy building several passion projects to help you better understand, well, you. If you're looking for data about your biology, check out function health for real time lab insights. If you're in need of deepening your knowledge around your health journey, check out my membership community, Hyman Hive. And if you're looking for curated and trusted supplements and health products for your routine, visit my website, supplement store, for a summary of my favorite and tested products.
Hey, everyone. It's doctor Mark Hyman. Ever wanted to ask me your health and wellness questions directly? Well, here's your chance. I have an exciting exclusive event coming up that you could be part of as a thank you for being a loyal listener on The Doctors Pharmacy.
On Wednesday, December 4th, I'm hosting a live digital experience called the Diet Wars, and I want you to join me. I'll be chatting with doctor Gabrielle Lyon, a board certified family doc and New York Times best selling author as we tackle one of the biggest wellness questions out there. Which diet really gives you the best shot at optimal health? Should you be a vegan? Should you be a carnivore or somewhere in between?
From paleo to vegan to carnivore and GLP ones, we'll break down the science, debunk the myths, and share our expert perspectives, help you make the best choices for your health. And here's the best part. You'll be able to interact with me and chat with our amazing community in real time during the event. Plus, if you're a VIP ticket holder, you'll get to join an exclusive q and a after party where you can ask us all your questions directly. The Dye Wars is a one time only experience that you you don't wanna miss, including limited edition merch.
It's all happening live on moment by Patreon, so mark your calendars for Wednesday, December 4th at 9 PM EST, 6 PM Pacific, and head over to moment dotc0forward/marc hyman to get your tickets. I can't wait to see you there. Welcome to Doctor's Pharmacy. This is doctor Mark Hyman, a place for conversations that matter. And if you care about living a good life and maybe learning why some of the self help material out there is not so helpful in a counterintuitive approach, You're gonna love this conversation with an extraordinary man, my friend and author, Mark Manson, who is a 3 times New York Times number one bestselling author.
His most well known work is called, and I'm not saying this to just say profanity, but it's actually the title of the book, is The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life. He reached number 1 in 14 different countries. His books have been translated into over 65 languages, sold over 20,000,000 copies, which is no small feat as an author. He runs one of the largest personal growth websites in the world, Mark Manson dot net, and a blog with more than 15,000,000 yearly readers and half a 1000000 subscribers. And he's just an awesome dude.
His writing is often described as self help for people who hate self help, a no BS brand of life advice and cultural commentary that struck a chord with people around the globe. His writing has appeared everywhere in New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine, Forbes, BBC, CNN, Vox, and so many others, and he's become a good friend. We're gonna we're gonna talk about his life story and what happened and some of the interesting things that we discussed today in terms of, what are the 5 simple ideas to change your life. We're gonna get into those. We're gonna get into, the work that he's done around rethinking our approach to self help, and we're gonna get into some great personal and intimate conversations about my life and his life.
I think you're gonna love this conversation. So let's dive right into this podcast with Mark Manson. Hey, Mark. It's so great to have you on the doctor's pharmacy podcast and see you again. It's been a while, and you've gone through some massive life changes.
Pretty amazing. Yeah. And, you know, you you, for those of you who don't know Mark, he kind of at 32 hit this wild success point, writing this book called The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, which, stirred up a lot of, controversy. It was hard to get published with that title. Yep.
And and I actually wanted to read, write a book called What the Fuck Should I Eat, but they they wouldn't they wouldn't let me. They made me call it what what the heck should I eat. Nice. So the whole premise of your work has really been sort of contrary to a lot of what, generally has been out there around self development, self help, what we believe about ourselves, how we live our lives, how we think about creating, a a vision for our lives. And and it's really, you know, I just trying to understand the origins of Sure.
Just because, you know, looking back to your history, you were a young kid, you were kinda make struggling, you kinda had a blog, you were learning how to kinda deal with women, and, you know, part of this whole pickup artist scene that was kind of it's kind of a strange scene. Sure. And and, you know, you kinda morphed into kind of an awakening that allowed you to kind of think about how to be happy without focusing on being happy or something like that. So
Mark Manson
Well, the the way I would if I had to if I had to give an elevator pitch for my philosophy or my work, it it would essentially be that I felt very strongly, say, 15 years ago that the personal development self help industry over index for positivity. It was all about feeling good all the time. Yeah. And and I think it began the mistake that feeling good meant you were feeling better. Whereas you can easily delude yourself in the feeling good when you're actually not better.
You're actually worse. And so I I strongly believe and I've strongly felt my entire life that getting better means getting more honest, getting more honest about yourself, getting more honest about the world, getting more honest about your relationships.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.
Mark Manson
And getting honest is not always does not always feel good.
Dr. Mark Hyman
No. It's not always easy.
Mark Manson
It's not always easy. In the short term, it it it often hurts, but in the long term, it makes both you, other people, and everybody better. So that's, like, the crux of my philosophy.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Don't lie to yourself or others.
Mark Manson
Yeah. Just don't don't just try don't lie to yourself.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
And, you know, I I think I I have a line in one of my books that it's, like, self improvement is just, like, a a a constant process of lying to yourself less. Yeah. And, and we all lie to ourselves.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
We all bullshit ourselves. We all, you know, buy into beliefs and stories that make ourselves feel better. Like, it's just human nature. It's part of it. And, so it I I kinda see I'm, like, on this constant crusade to
Dr. Mark Hyman
No lie. To fight fight that back. Yeah. You know, it's what you're saying is so important. It's so true.
And and and the most pernicious lies are the ones we tell to ourselves.
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
The fact that we can't look honestly at ourselves, look in the mirror at our behaviors, our choices, our thinking, not question our thoughts. I mean, it's it's really remarkable how locked into lying our society is. It's just Yeah. A continuous parade of lies to ourselves and others without, without realizing the consequences to our happiness and our well-being. Yeah.
You know, I have a friend, Lauren Zander, who's who basically is a is a life coach, taught at the Haendel Group, and she really helped me kinda stop being a liar.
Mark Manson
It's hard.
Dr. Mark Hyman
It's really freaking hard.
Mark Manson
I mean, it's it's the the I think it was the Nobel Prize winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman. He said he said, as a species, we did not evolve to perceive truth. We evolved to perceive what helped us survive. Yeah. And and so on a very fundamental basis, our brain lies to us.
Yeah. Because it's it helps us survive and reproduce. So it's but it's it doesn't make us psychologically healthy. No. So,
Dr. Mark Hyman
you know, essentially, I I I've been kind of reading this book, which is literally opposite of what you're talking about. It's called 48 Rules of Power, which is basically looking historically at, you know, societies and cultures that have, you know, had to deal with intrigue and courtesans and hierarchy and monarchies and incurring favor and, you know, rising up in the ranks since it's from Machiavelli to, you know, who knows who? And it's it's fascinating because, you know, there is something you said for understanding human nature and how to work with human nature. And the book's not about power over people. It's about how to not be powerless in your life and understand how people and humans actually engage most of the time.
But, you know, one of the things that it struck me when I first met you was a a story that, your wife told when I said, so how did you guys meet? How did you fall in love? What's your story? You know? We had dinner in New York.
And Fernando, your wife was was, you call her Faye, I guess, was was, said something really striking to me. She says, well, he was, like, the first honest man I'd ever met. And and he was honest when he was honest with me, it was what I didn't wanna hear. Yeah. It was something that I was like, you know, I wanted to hang out and be together, and he was like, I'm out of here.
I'm in New York, and I don't know. This is my life, and I'm not sure. And, like, we'll see how it goes. And,
Mark Manson
like Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I was like, wow. You know? That's sexy. Yeah. You know?
And and that's that's a it's a very different tact than we normally take. Like, the whole pickup artist thing is the opposite of that. It's, like, it's more Machiavellian. How do you kind of contort yourself and shape yourself into somebody or something in the way you look and the way you speak and how you talk to people to get what you want out of somebody.
Mark Manson
Right? That's there's actually yeah. There's a really nice connection between all those things because the the pickup artist community industry, it optimizes for power. And optimizing for power means you're not optimizing for healthy relationships, and you're not optimizing for happiness, and and you're often being dishonest in the process. Whereas, you know, my belief very fundamentally in that industry, I just felt very disgusted by the whole thing.
And I was like, you know, that being honest, maybe it doesn't always get you the girl you want. Yeah. But the ones you get, you end up being so much happier with them. Yeah. And it ends up being such a better relationship.
Yeah. And you actually are compatible with each other, and she actually understands you and you actually understand her. Right. But, you know, going through that process, it isn't always pleasant. The the example the example I often use in talks is, is that it's you know, when I started dating my wife, you know, like most women, she would we'd be going out for a date night or whatever, and she put on an outfit.
And she'd walk out, and she'd be like, how do I look?
Dr. Mark Hyman
And you're like, you don't look good in that outfit.
Mark Manson
Exactly. I would, like, I would tell her that, and she would get so pissed off. And Well, don't ask me.
Dr. Mark Hyman
But but
Mark Manson
but it it's, but it's funny because it's, you know, early in our relationship, she really hated that. Yeah. And she was like, why why do you have this like, can't you just lie and say, like, I look great? And I was I was like, no. I'm not gonna do that.
But now it's if she walks out and we're about to go out and she looks amazing, and I tell her, you look amazing tonight. You're absolutely gorgeous. She knows I'm being honest. She knows I'm not bullshitting her. Right?
And so it's like that compliment hits
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
You know, 10 times as hard. And so I I just think that, like, that's just a fundamental aspect of life that, like, you can't really fully appreciate or enjoy the good things in life without being honest and and open to the bad things. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, I I think it's it's we're often afraid of the outcome. I know for me, you know, as a kid and my stepfather was a rageaholic.
Mark Manson
Mhmm.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, I I I the story I don't know if I've told this on the podcast. I might have, but I was like, my mother married. My stepfather moved to Canada. I was 7 years old, and he was like a clean freak. Mhmm.
And back in those days, in the sixties back then I'm really old.
Mark Manson
Sorry. We
Dr. Mark Hyman
we didn't have those, kitchen sink, you know, you know, garberators or whatever you call them, disposals.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and so I had to throw out some, like, soup, and the way we would do it is, like, throw it down the toilet. And my mom said, go take this pot of whatever leftover soup and throw it down the toilet. And so I went in there and I threw it down the toilet. I flushed the toilet. I came out and he was standing there.
He's a, like, big barrel chested guy, booming voice. He's like, did you wash your hands? And I'm like, no. Yeah. Because I didn't go to the bathroom.
And he went into a rage, and he, like, threw me against the wall, like, literally threw me across the room, like like, almost like a football smashing against the wall. It was the most terrifying experience to set little 7 year old kid. I was really little. I'm not I'm, like, 6 foot 3 now, but I was, like Sure. A little shrimpy kid.
And and then my mother, sort of, in order to keep the peace, would always say to me, don't tell your father this. Don't tell your and my grandmother would do it. She say, I give you $5. Don't tell your mother I gave you $5. Like so it was like this embedded thing growing up in or in order to manage people's emotions and not have to deal with the effects on you.
Yeah. In other words, their reaction, which you can't control
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Don't tell them the truth, manipulate them to try to keep the peace and I became a people pleaser which is a liar. Yes, yes. Right? Absolutely. It's just being a liar.
Exactly. I'm a nice guy. I'm helping everybody. I'm saying yes. I'm like, no.
I'm just I'm just a liar to myself because I don't wanna do this freaking thing. Right. I'm a liar to whoever I'm talking to, and and it was really, you know, embedded in in sort of who I was and and learning unlearning that was not easy. Yeah. And I and for you, I'm wondering how did you get that epiphany where you were like, this isn't the way to go.
Like, because you went from basically being trained in how to lie Right. By one culture to, like, flipping to going, I'm gonna be involved in radical honesty.
Mark Manson
Well, it's interesting because I think my childhood was kind of the inversion of yours. I grew up in a in a dysfunctional family of people pleasers. So
Dr. Mark Hyman
People pleasers?
Mark Manson
Yes. So both of my parents are extremely nonconfrontational. Both my parents are people pleasers, and there would be situations in my house when I was a kid where it was like, clearly mom is pissed off at dad and clearly dad can't stand mom, but nobody's saying anything. Everybody's just smiling.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Smell it in the air.
Mark Manson
Everybody's smiling and pretending everything's okay, and and and it the the amount of tension and discomfort that there was. And so I became and this is my dad has told me this much later, but, you know, I became the the truthsayer in the family. So I would be the one in the family walk into the room and be like
Dr. Mark Hyman
that little shit disturber.
Mark Manson
Yeah. I was like, why are you why are you mad? Like, why are you mad
Dr. Mark Hyman
at her? And I'm not mad.
Mark Manson
I'm not mad.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I don't know what you're talking about.
Mark Manson
I'm like, look. Clearly, you're mad. You're not talking to her. You know? It it so I would be the one who'd stir up all the shit.
And I think, you know, as a kid, I was trying to adapt to my family. Like, keep my family together and functioning. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
But existential because if you're a kid and, you know, your survival depends on these 2 grown ups and they're a shit show
Mark Manson
Who who who burying their heads in the sand Right. And ignoring everything. You know? So it it was it was a survival mechanism, but I think it it it has served me well. I mean, essentially, my career is being that true sayer of being, like, you know, going into the pickup industry and being like, hey, guys.
You're a bunch of manipulative fucks. Like, you need to be honest. Like, not only is this this, like Yeah. Questionably unethical, but, like, you if you wanna ever have a happy, healthy relationship and not be a raging misogynist, like, you need to start being honest with women. Right.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And
Mark Manson
I went to the self help industry. I'm like, guys, you can't it's not gonna be unicorns and rainbows all the time. Like, I don't care how many meditations you do or, like
Dr. Mark Hyman
How much would you say?
Mark Manson
Yeah. How much you fucking microdose. Like, life's gonna suck sometimes, and we should actually be honest about that. And,
Dr. Mark Hyman
Even in the full lotus position is Yeah.
Mark Manson
So it still it still fucking sucks. So, you know, it's it's like, that's that's essentially what I get paid for. But but
Dr. Mark Hyman
but but, you know, the truth is that, like, life for all of us has its moments. Yes.
Mark Manson
You know,
Dr. Mark Hyman
ups and downs, joys, peaks and valleys. And and you're not saying it's not about having all of that. You're just saying, like, just don't pretend that that everything is perfect all the time and deny yourself the experience of reality, which actually is kinda better. I had I had a friend once when I was I was in college, and we were walking along in this beautiful country road. And she says, Mark, sometimes you're happy, and the rest of the time you're growing.
Mark Manson
That's a nice way to put it.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I'm like, oh,
Mark Manson
okay. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's it. And, you know, the the lying thing is so key. I I I I really did that consciously and unconsciously in all my relationships until the last one. And literally, the first I can I was so committed after my last, divorce to kind of really get honest, and when I met my current wife, I literally day 1, I just said everything? I'm like, yeah, here's who I am, here's what I got, here's what I don't got, here's what's working, here's what's not working, here's what my here's my crazies.
Here's my family. Here's, like Yeah. All the skeletons, like, this is just what it is. Here it all is. Take it or leave it.
You know. And, good thing is she stuck around. Yeah. And and she knows that I'm I'm straight, and it's it's a it's such a relief because I don't have to pretend anything.
Mark Manson
Well, the way the way I talked about it in my dating book is I said that it what it does is it polarizes responses. So what most people do when they date is they try to be middle of the road in everything. They try to not never have a controversial opinion because they want everybody they date to like them. But because they don't have anything that stands out or that is any, like, is exceptional or unique about them, they they don't develop strong attraction with anybody that they go out with. Whereas, when you introduce honesty like you did with your current wife and you lay everything out on the table And
Dr. Mark Hyman
it's vulnerable.
Mark Manson
It's completely vulnerable, and what you do is you polarize the reaction. So a certain percentage of women are gonna look at what you laid out on the table, and they're like, oh, that's not I'm
Dr. Mark Hyman
out of here.
Mark Manson
That's not for me.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I'm out
Mark Manson
of here. Thanks, but no. Thanks.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And but a small percentage of
Mark Manson
women are gonna be like, oh, wow. No. This is exactly what I want. And then and so then it the attraction actually becomes so much stronger, and and it's a a very authentic attraction. You're not you're not trying to there's no gamesmanship.
There's no one upping. There's no, you know, people pleasing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. So so, you know, you kind of recognize this in your late twenties, and you kinda kinda woke up to kind of the bullshit that you were living in your life. And, and you started to kinda just write this blog, and it kinda took off. And Right. And a lot of people resonated with this message, which was sort of counterintuitive.
Mhmm. But you've been extremely successful doing it and and have helped a lot of people think differently about how to look at, you know, make making their lives better in a in a kind of a contrary way. I I kinda kinda followed your trajectory, and and, you know, being young and having that much success can kinda fuck with your head a little bit.
Mark Manson
Yeah. And Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, you know, you you went you went through a period of of burnout. You kinda had this kind of a meteoric rise. Everybody on the planet was reading your book. I was actually very mad because I would walk into every airport and see it everywhere, and when I was writing my, you know, 15 New York Times bestsellers, like, just struggling to get them to get stay on the list, and I'm like, what's going on with this guy? And then, and and yet, there was a dark side to it for
Mark Manson
you. Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, you know, you got unhealthy. You weren't taking care of yourself. You were living life that, you know, wasn't actually what you wanted. And and I wonder kind of what what it took for you to kind of look at yourself and and and see where you were kind of asleep and maybe even sort of lying to yourself about what was going on.
Mark Manson
Yeah. So there's there's 2 aspects of this. There's kinda, like, the professional side of it, and then there's, like, the the health side of it. Yeah. I'll start with the professional.
We can go into that.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Yeah. I wanna get that outside.
Mark Manson
So because they are very related. So on the professional side, I think it was just too much too fast. You know? Like, I think our the way our brains seem to function is like we we tend to feel best. Like, I think most people, if they get a 10% raise each year, you know, they're like, oh, that was a good year.
You know? Yeah. And if it's 20% or 25%, like, wow, this is a really good year.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You went from living your mom's house to to being in a penthouse in New York. Right?
Mark Manson
Right. And it when it when it's 10000% in 1 year, your brain just kind of explodes. Like, you don't really know it it it takes it takes multiple years for your brain your identity to catch up to the reality of, like, okay, this has happened. And I think the result is a lot of things, you know, like imposter syndrome, insecurity, you know, I I definitely kinda felt like, okay. This this thing just really took off like a rocket.
I don't totally understand why this might be my 15 minutes. So let me let me just say yes to everything because I'm young. I don't have kids. Like, what else am I gonna do? So I did say yes to everything, and and I ended up burning myself out.
I ended up doing a lot of things that, like, I didn't totally love doing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So you were lying, and you were saying yes, and you meant no. Exactly.
Mark Manson
I I did not I was not aware of my it's ironic because all these things are in the book itself. I lost sight of my own values and what I cared about. Yeah. And I didn't know what to not give a fuck about. And, and so I started saying yes to everything.
I started people pleasing within the industry.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Giving a fuck. I started gave too many fucks,
Mark Manson
and, and and it got me into a lot of trouble. So, like, that was kind of the the professional side. And and I burnt myself out, and I I ended up reaching a point where I'm like, you know what? I really just need to, like, stop everything for a while and, like, get back in touch with myself and what I wanna do and what I enjoy doing and what I care about. So that that was kind of a wild ride professionally.
On kind of like a personal side and a health side, I think what you know, there there's this question that people ask all the time is, like, does money change you? And I don't I don't think money changes you. What what money does is it it takes the the guardrails off who you already are. So if you have if you have self destructive tendencies, but you're you're kinda broke or you depend on a corporate job and you need to make your boss happy, like, those are guardrails that kinda, like, maybe keep you a little bit in line because it's it's there's, like, really bad repercussions if you if you get out of line. Soon as a bunch of money falls on you, it's like those guardrails are gone.
Right. You can kinda do whatever you want. I had a lot of bad habits, bad lifestyle habits, some self destructive tendencies, and it, like, the guardrails were gone. And so I got started going out all the time, ate all the things, drank almost all the time, traveled way too much, partied way too much. And, like, don't get me wrong.
Some of that, I don't
Dr. Mark Hyman
there's a there's a
Mark Manson
certain amount of that I don't regret. But, I I think the the thing was is that I lost control and back to the lion thing. I was lying to myself about not being in control about it. So, so I I became extremely unhealthy, and I actually hit a point. I was writing 2 books in 2018.
Is it 2018? Yeah. 2018, I was writing 2 books simultaneously.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Everything's Fucked and the Will Smith book?
Mark Manson
Yeah. Yeah. Which I don't ever recommend doing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Doing 2 books at once or writing somebody else's book?
Mark Manson
Doing 2 books at once. And I had speaking tours. I was just, like, overloaded. I I was incredibly unhealthy. I gained a ton of weight.
I was drinking all the time, and I was sitting in my office writing one day, and I started getting chest pains. And my family has a long history of Oh. Heart disease.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Oh.
Mark Manson
And so I was like, I'm 35. Like, I can't be having like, this can't be happening now. Can't be having heart attacks.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right? I'm like, this is too early. Like, this is too soon.
Mark Manson
And so I went to some doctors. I got tests. You know, it turned out everything was fine, but, you know, the doctor being a good doctor was like, you know, have you been stressed lately? Like, what are your lifestyle habits like? And he kinda just gave me a wake up call.
Like, he was like, you know, this the trajectory you're on is, like, not a good one, right, especially given your family history. Yeah. And, so I I I had a little bit of a wake up call around my health and and realizing that, like, I need to get this shit figured out because it's like there is a lot of stuff in my family. I I ended up doing, like, a genetic test, discovered I have hemochromatosis. I have a double e four gene.
Oh.
Dr. Mark Hyman
The APOE4. That's a Alzheimer's risk gene.
Mark Manson
Yeah. So it's like
Dr. Mark Hyman
And hemochromatosis is where you store too much iron. It can, over time, just basically cause all your organs to rust, so it's not a good thing.
Mark Manson
No. No. Not it's not. And then, you know, at that point, I got I got a bunch of blood work done as well. You know, I was, like, prediabetic.
I was, like, massively overweight. I think I was, like, 42% body fat or something like that.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Men should be 10 to 20.
Mark Manson
Yeah. So Just for those listening. Yeah. So I was I was a train wreck, and so that that started a long, a long process of kinda, like, getting my my shit together health wise.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And what was that like for you? Because all of a sudden, you've kind of, you know, had a set of beliefs you had to change. You know? Yeah. And changing beliefs is not hard, and and part of your work is really about how do we look at our beliefs
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and see where they're leading us. Because our beliefs are the things that make us make the choices we make Right. And believe it and do the things we do and act the way we act, and they're often interrupted interrupting the values we have. Like so Totally. Our beliefs and values are always kinda alive.
Mark Manson
It it the hardest part was not only did I have, I guess, bad beliefs or inaccurate beliefs around health, it was I was also unaware of how bad or inaccurate my beliefs were. So and I think this is something that, like, I
Dr. Mark Hyman
You could've called me, Mark.
Mark Manson
I I should've. Well, I didn't know you at that point, but in hindsight, I should've. I think looking back, and I think this is a problem with a lot of people who are very unhealthy and that they struggle with to to get to get healthy, is that, like, their baseline understanding of what is healthy is just completely skewed or off. Right? So it's like my idea of, like, a healthy meal was, just anything with a vegetable in it.
You know? Like, in my head, I was like, well, I ate a salad for dinner even though that that salad had probably 1500 calories. Right? You know? But in my head, I didn't understand anything about calories.
I didn't understand anything about macros. All I understood was I ate a salad, so that's healthy. And, you know, when I drank tonight, I only had 2 drinks instead of 5, so that's healthy.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So, like, it so, you
Mark Manson
know, it's just like your definition
Dr. Mark Hyman
like half a piece instead of a whole piece.
Mark Manson
Exactly. So it's it's it a lot of it is just, like, a very skewed expectation of, like or understanding of, like, just what is healthy in the first place.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
And it's and it's hard to you know, like, I grew up in Texas. I grew up, Bubba's and barbecue? Bubba's and barbecue, fast food every other night. Like, it it you know, so in my head, I'm, like, looking at the people I grew up with and the people in my family. I'm like, well, I'm healthier, and that person, like
Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, that person is only £450. I'm like, oh, wait. 350, so I must be good.
Mark Manson
It's exact that's exactly what it is. Right? And it's and it was the same with the drinking too. It's like, well, you know, my friend over there is, like, facedown in a ditch, and I'm still, like, standing upright. So I must I'm like, I'm not that bad.
Right? So a lot of it is just like, what is your reference point? And my reference points were so bad that I, again, I lied to myself. It made it easy to lie to myself and be like, well, I'm being healthy. Right?
So I, you know, initially, I I I kinda like I did, like, the half assed uneducated version of getting in shape. You know, I started going to the gym, started eating 1500 calorie salads, started having 3 drinks instead of 5. Yeah. You know, and that I lost, like, 5 or £10 or whatever, but, like and then I plateaued, and I got stuck. And, of course, I, like, felt completely lost and, like, I don't understand.
Why am I, like, why am I not losing more weight? I'm being healthy. So there was there was definitely a, there was a there was early on there, there needed to be, like, an education process in terms of just getting good reference points.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And how did you get there?
Mark Manson
I eventually saw a a friend of mine, actually, a friend of a friend is a health coach, and so I they connected me to him, and he just I mean, he he just told me the the blatantly obvious, which is, you know, he'd be like, so, you know, take me through your weekend. What did you what did you do? What did you eat? What did you drink? You know?
And I went through everything, and he was like, okay. Well, yeah, that's not hell. Like, what was on the salad? Yeah. That's not healthy, dude.
Like, he that's not a healthy that's not a healthy meal. You know? So he kinda set me straight with that. The other thing he did is which was huge, it was he got me tracking.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yes, sir.
Mark Manson
And and it's coming back to line thing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right. The canned line is all. I I ate 14 cookies from the Oreo package. You know what?
Mark Manson
Yeah. You're like, well, this has protein. I think it's healthy. You know? And then you load it into your macro tracker, and you're like, oh my god.
What did I do? You know? So, so tracking was was a huge
Dr. Mark Hyman
So support, tracking, accountability Totally. Basic basic fundamental knowledge that you might not have had that you think, you know, you know, most of us, you know, you're educated. You went to college. You think Yeah. It should be kinda common common sense and common knowledge, but most people have no clue about what it takes to create health.
Mark Manson
It is I mean, I don't envy you in your industry because the the I think the the message that gets to people ends up so skewed. Like, I think the the message that gets to people is, like, I gotta do this crazy diet. I gotta, like, you know, work out 6 times a week. I gotta, like, you know, hire all these people and do all these things. And it it's actually there's just some, like, very fundamental basic things that if you if you do them every single day.
Dr. Mark Hyman
It's just consistency. Yeah.
Mark Manson
Yeah. That it kinda like, 80% of it takes care of itself.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, and you lost £65. So Yeah. I mean, it was it was
Mark Manson
that was over 5 years. So it was fits and starts and, you know
Dr. Mark Hyman
And no it was epic. So that's
Mark Manson
And and re rebounds and then, you know, back again. The thing I tell people because, you know, people always ask me. They're like, oh, what did you do? As if I did one thing. And it I will say that the the struggle the biggest struggle is the mental side.
It's it's the knowing when I was bullshitting myself, knowing when I was diluting myself, knowing, you know, knowing when I was cutting corners and being honest with myself about that and then trying to understand why I was doing those things. Like, why was I lying to myself so I could eat more pizza?
Dr. Mark Hyman
And do you have a process for that? Because, you know, most of us have extremely thick armor against
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Being able to kinda have insight about our own behavior, our own lies, and our own self deceptions. It's it's very hard to kind of turn the mirror on yourself.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
How did you do that?
Mark Manson
Again, accountability is huge. You know, having some sort of coach or trainer
Dr. Mark Hyman
Electric shock collar.
Mark Manson
Shock collar partner. You know, it it's I I gotta give credit to my wife. Like, she's much better about the food side of things than I am, and there are many, many times where she's like, you realize that's not healthy. Right? You know?
And I'm like, ah, come on. It's got some green
Dr. Mark Hyman
in it. Like, you know, it's Sure. It's mint chocolate chip ice cream. It's green.
Mark Manson
It's green. There must be a vegetable. Mint's a vegetable. Right? So, like you know, and then then I'd load it up into the tracker, and, you know, it's way more about systems than it is willpower.
Like, if you're relying on willpower, you're just kinda fucked because willpower is is it's very finite, and it comes and goes. And, but if you have the systems in place, you know, it's like if you're if the only groceries that are showing up to the house are, like, good ingredients, right, like, if the the meals that you have planned for the week are like, the macros are already counted before you plan them.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right? Just make it hard to make a mistake because you're in you change your environment. Exactly. Yeah.
Mark Manson
Exactly. You just you you just put, like, you know, you just put, like, kids' gloves on everything. Like, just make it as make it so easy a 5 year old could do it. That's me.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I think it's actually I I I I wrote a book called the 10 Day Detox Diet. In there, I talked about how behavior change happens, and part of it is, you know, really focusing on changing your default environment. So house has to be a safe zone. Like, the other night, I had a lot of stress happen and something was, like, really a big deal, and I was like, I want to try a pint of ice cream right now. And I'm like, in this and there was no ice cream in the freezer.
Yeah. And I'm like, oh, I don't know what to or I went to order online, and then it said you had to order a salt and straw. I had to order 5 pints of ice cream. And I'm like, no. I'm not gonna do it.
Not worth it.
Mark Manson
Not worth it.
Dr. Mark Hyman
But but, like, so if the home was a safe zone Yeah. You know, and you have your workout equipment, you have your tennis shoes, whatever, like, you you make it so that it's it's automatic. I think that's really important. But the, you know, the the bigger issue really is is is the sort of I would say to my patients, it's not what are you eating. It's what's eating you.
So, you know, what was driving you to that behavior, and how did you tackle that demon? Because that's the mental
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, because I went to eat, exercise. I mean, that that you know, despite all the nutrition controversies and all the the sort of diet books, it it's bay pretty basic what works. You know? I can tell you as a doctor for a year. Just eat real food.
Yeah. Move your body. Move your body. Sleep. You know?
Yeah. Know how to relax a little bit. It all works out.
Mark Manson
I noticed so and I'm I'm glad you asked that because this you know, it took probably 2 or 3 years into this process for me to even get to the point where I could, like, reasonably have an answer to that question. Mhmm. Because it was I think what what I didn't appreciate is that how unconscious like, it food is such a primal thing, and it's like such an unconsciously driven thing. Like, I never stopped. My whole life, I never stopped and thought, like, why do I crave pizza right now?
Or, like, why do I, you know, wanna have a drink? And what I noticed is that the 2 the 2 big drivers for me were anxiety and boredom, that I tended to eat junk or drink if I was bored, or I would eat junk or drink if I was anxious about something and worried about something. Yeah. And the the anxiety was actually kind of the easier thing to deal with. You know, once I was aware of it, I could, like, kinda channel it a little bit better.
The boredom was was actually harder for me because that started to get into social life and identity. Mhmm. I realized that a lot of my social life was built around food and alcohol. Yeah. And to decouple that meant I had to give up a significant part of my social life, which meant that, like, I didn't see certain friends as often.
I, you know, I I I very much I took a lot of pride. I kinda had the identity of, like, the party guy. You know, if you invited me to the wedding, I'd be the 1st on the dance floor and the last one off, and it's because I was fucking drunk. And and, like, it when I stopped drinking, I was like, I had to give that up. I'm like, okay.
I'm not the party guy. I'm not gonna be the guy who closes the bar with you every night. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm I'm I'm the guy who's gonna go home at 10:30 because he's tired.
Yeah. Yeah. And that sucked. Like, that that was there was a little bit of an ego Yeah. Death sort of thing that had to happen there.
So the the boredom was actually a much harder solve for me.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Because it's like you're you're filling empty space that you know, where you have to be with yourself.
Mark Manson
Mhmm.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and and, Well,
Mark Manson
it made me realize too, Mark, that, like, like, this was this, like, fucking hurt when I realized it. And so I was like, you know, if I need to eat and get drunk with this person to have fun, then I don't like this person. Right. Like, they're not actually my friend. That's true.
And, like, that was very upsetting to realize.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and and and that's really true. It's like, you know, because you're only as healthy as the 5 healthiest of the 5 friends you're hanging out with the most. Right? So Totally. And I think, you know, what are their behaviors?
What are their habits? So I was at a wedding, for example, this weekend, and there was no alcohol. Mhmm. It was alcohol free wedding. Yeah.
And the food was amazing. And there was yoga classes, and we danced, and we played, and we did all kinds of great stuff. But it it, you know, it it didn't require us to to kind of rely on all that stuff to actually have an extraordinary time. There were Yeah. We had, like, cake contests Yeah.
Yeah. And all kinds of fun, you know, things that people engaged in that were were really beautiful, that were bonding, that weren't about being checked out or zoned out or drunk or Or fucked up. Or fucked up. Right? Yeah.
And and and I think, you know, so for example, you could have no a dinner party at your house where you control the food, where there's no alcohol, or, you know, you have a different experience. So Yeah. I think there's there's ways that for people to kinda still kinda have the things that they care about. Right? Yes.
Social connections. And I say, well, you know, I can't go out, but maybe, you know, being in a bar every night is not your is not gonna end up well for you in your life.
Mark Manson
It it's it is true. It but I I will say that that transition that was one of the most difficult things. It's interesting. I did a YouTube video a couple years ago about quitting drinking because I I Did you completely quit? I completely quit.
I I originally quit as part of the weight loss.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
You know, I was just gonna do a couple months to lose some extra pounds, and it was such a profound shift mentally, emotionally, physically, that I just kept going, and I I haven't I I now wonder if maybe I was, like, a highly functional alcoholic
Dr. Mark Hyman
for a
Mark Manson
number of years. I don't I don't know the answer to that question, but I did a I did a YouTube video maybe a year ago about quitting, and, you know, it went viral and got a few 1,000,000 views. And the most common comment was from people saying, was from former alcoholic saying, I quit drinking. It's the best thing I ever did. I I've I still have not found a social life outside of it.
Like, it's the it's the one thing I miss. Is, like, I used to have all these friends. I used to go out with them all the time. I'd go to the bar. I knew half the
Dr. Mark Hyman
people there. Yeah.
Mark Manson
And they don't know. It's very hard to recreate that outside of it. And I part of it for me too that I've noticed is that, like, my my purse without alcohol, my personality is different. I'm much more introverted. I my interests are narrower, which was complete like, a total curveball.
Completely unexpected. It actually caused marriage problems. Really? Because I I stopped enjoying things that I used to enjoy that had nothing to do with alcohol.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I
Mark Manson
and I became interested in other things. So we used to go to a lot of shows, and I kinda
Dr. Mark Hyman
You mean, like concerts? Or
Mark Manson
Shows, concerts, plays, musicals. And I kinda realized You didn't like them
Dr. Mark Hyman
unless you were drunk?
Mark Manson
Yeah. I was like, I I think I I think I used to just go have a couple whiskeys and and think I liked it. You know? Or I'm much more into, like, physical activity now. And and, like, I don't really enjoy sitting around and watching a TV show, binging a TV show like the way I used to.
Yeah. You know? So it's just like yeah. It just it it disrupts.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You just have to recreate, though. I mean, you have to recreate do. Yeah. That that and then because there's fans who you wanna do fun stuff with, like go on a ski trip or 100%. Go hiking or 100%.
Go play pickleball or which is a big thing in Austin. Yeah.
Mark Manson
Yeah. It's everywhere. But I guess I guess what I'm doing I I'm just putting out a PSA to people. Like, this is an unexpected thing that happened. Like, this was actually a very unexpected challenge related to this Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
To to the health journey. Yeah. Yeah. Because you do. If you if you drop the friends and the people who are actually harming you in your life by, you know, kind of encouraging the engaging behaviors that, oh, let's go eat that sheet cake for tonight and watch those, you know, 6 hours of Netflix.
Yeah. That's not exactly good for you. And and and it does leave a gap, and I I can imagine it's painful. But but on the other side of it, I think it's really about being intentional in terms of how you re rethink what what's possible. I I wanna kinda take a little bit of direction, challenge you a little bit because, you know, your your your call shtick is like, I'm not really into self help.
It's all kinda bullshit. And, you know, like, there's you know, it all gives the wrong messages. And I think rather than being against self help, you're just saying the typical help self help advice isn't that helpful. And and then you your work is really is about self help, but in a different way with kind of a contrarian view. And even for example, you have, like, these 5 ideas that can change your life, which are which sound super depressing and are kind of like, you know, like, human sucks, so try to suck less or pain is inevitable.
You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, suffering is optional. There there there's embedded in these five things, though, there's a lot of wisdom.
Sure. And it's kind of tongue in cheek, and it it kinda gets you to take a funny look at at the at the sort of the beliefs that we're attached to that keep us suffering.
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right? So can you kinda unpack that a little bit and and kind of tell us really how we can help ourselves as opposed to the the current sort of positive, everything's great. And if you just meditate and say enough mantras and, you know, have enough Have
Mark Manson
your kale
Dr. Mark Hyman
smoothie in the morning. Yeah. There's then everything will be perfect. Right.
Mark Manson
It it it so I I I often joke that, I write self help for people who hate self help. So it is still self help,
Dr. Mark Hyman
but it
Mark Manson
is you know, it it's kind of the contrarian self help. So those 5 ideas, I'm I'm I might get them wrong. You know, first one is humans suck, try to suck less. I think this there's in traditional self help, there's kind of this false idea that, we're born perfect, and we are corrupted through the tragedy of life and that it's it's about getting back to our, you know, healing our inner child and getting back to our perfect nature and
Dr. Mark Hyman
all
Mark Manson
this stuff. And it's like actually, if you, look at any biology or evolutionary psychology, it's like humans are a fucking mess, and we are an incomplete project. And, a lot of our our suffering and pain and and imperfections are very much baked in by evolution. Like, they're they're a feature, not a bug of our psychology. And so we just need to accept that and accept that we are fundamentally imperfect.
Our minds are imperfect. Our bodies are imperfect, and, we're just doing the best that we can to, like, adapt to our environment. Right? So, I think that's a much healthier starting place of, like, okay. How can you adapt better to your environment or be a more, adaptable and and functional human being rather than, like, rediscovering your inner perfection or whatever?
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, it's kinda like the wabi sabi idea. Right? Like, the imperfection in, the perfection and imperfection.
Mark Manson
Imperfection. Totally.
Dr. Mark Hyman
The the thing was pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
Mark Manson
Suffering is optional. So this this is this is just like Buddhism 101, that life is pain, essentially, that, any sort of attachment or desire is there's a pain associated with it. And the minute you you you deny that that pain exists or try to avoid that pain or try to perfect pretend that that pain shouldn't be there, you that's when you create suffering. The, there's a allegory from the Buddha that I love, which is the, it's called the 2 arrows. So Yeah.
He said that when whenever you were struck by an arrow, you're actually struck struck twice. So there's the the first strike is the arrow piercing your skin and and the physical pain that's associated with it. But the second pain is the when you ask yourself, why was I the one struck with the arrow? What did I do to deserve this?
Dr. Mark Hyman
Psychological. Yeah. It's kind of like a cold plunge, right? Yeah. You get in, and it's a it's a sensation, right?
It's it's a sensation, and and there's an idea we attach that sensation that is bad Yes. And that it's gonna hurt us. I mean, if you're standing there long enough, yes, you'll die of hypothermia, but but, basically, I took one yesterday night, and I've got me there. I'm like, okay. This is a sensation.
It is. And my my choice to suffer from the sensation is a choice. Exactly. Right? And Exactly.
And I think that's a really empowering thing because, you know, whatever happens to your life, we we I mean, I think I do this. I mean, most of this, you you you end up in the sense of of sort of, a deeper level of suffering than you need to because you're stuck in sort of a belief about the meaning you attach to what happens.
Mark Manson
Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So, oh, you know, my ex wife, Mia, who you met and, you know, we split up, and you wrote a book called Love is Not Enough. We deeply loved each other, but, you know, we just weren't a fit. Yeah. And and, you know, and I ended up having all these beliefs that were causing me to to suffer. I mean, it was painful to split up, but the suffering went on for a lot longer than needed because I held on to all these beliefs about it.
I wasn't good enough. I'm never gonna find anybody again. I'm too old. I'm whatever. You know?
Like, I she was the person who had the best, you know, relationship with my my life to to date. You know? Like, all these things kind of were and I'm never gonna find this again. And Yeah. All these things kinda caused this unnecessary suffering, which turned out to be completely untrue, and I would have saved myself so much misery if I just kinda realized that.
Mark Manson
You just stopped telling yourself stories.
Dr. Mark Hyman
But it's it's the meaning we attach to things and events that caused the suffering. And then the question is what causes us to attach that meaning, and how do we get to the root of that and the beliefs that are underneath that meaning we create, the meaning making machines that we are.
Mark Manson
What's what's also so dangerous is that we we often forget that we like, you spun up a bunch of stories about a painful event in your life. We all we all do that. It's human nature. But what mo what happens most of the time, especially when we're young and we haven't developed enough self awareness, is that we spin up these stories that cause us to suffer and then we forget that they're stories. We just live with them for decades assuming that that's just that's just the way the world is.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right. It get it gets written in ink, not pencil.
Mark Manson
Exactly. Exactly. And we and so, you know, I think the kind of the fundamental thing that therapy does is help people realize that their stories are just that, stories.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And breaking that pattern is what sets you free. Like, it's it's it's getting free of those those constraining beliefs, the limiting beliefs that actually are are the reason you suffer. It's not the event itself. Totally. Gabriel Mate has been on the podcast.
Said it's not the trauma that causes the problem. It's the meaning we make from what happens to us. Right? Absolutely. So the same event can happen to 2 different people and have totally different effects on them throughout their whole life because of the meaning we attach to it, and that's a very powerful thing.
I actually once heard this anthropologist talk about these societies where they had really incredible cultures, where there was a lot of love, and they're highly functional, where it kind of worked, and they had 4 great criteria that she noticed they all adhere to. 1st was to to, show up. Like, everybody showed up. 2 is to be present. Those aren't that hard, but harder than ever now.
These days, it's it's pretty hard. Yeah. Our attention robbing culture. Yeah. The third was, and this is kinda goes along with your honesty thing.
Tell the truth without blame or judgment. So that's a harder one to do, but telling the truth is hard, and then doing without blaming somebody or judging somebody is also really hard.
Mark Manson
Extremely. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And the 4th one is the hardest, and this goes to the suffering part, which is be open to the outcome. So if you told this woman who you thought was amazing that you met in Brazil that is now your wife, that gee, you weren't really that available in this moment. You kinda liked her, but, you know, you you had to be open to the outcome. She goes in, you know Right. See you later, buddy.
Go you know, that's you're a jerk and Yeah. Or she she was like, oh my god. I fell in love with this guy. He told the truth. You know?
Yeah. But you didn't know which one was gonna happen.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And the and the reality is that when you tell the truth, you always meet reality as opposed to some fantasy or imaginary thing that's happening that's not really true. Yeah. And you have a much more authentic life because you're actually meeting what is as opposed to what you're trying to construct to be or how you're gonna try to control that outcome. So Yeah. It's really powerful.
So I think I think getting getting that is important. The next the next, of the 5, rules here is is everything you believe will one day fail you, This is how you grow.
Mark Manson
This is very similar to what
Dr. Mark Hyman
sounds very freaking depressing. Yeah.
Mark Manson
This but this is very similar to to what you were just talking about. Right? It's like
Dr. Mark Hyman
You're happy or you're growing.
Mark Manson
I mean, every belief is is a story, and every story is incomplete and slightly inaccurate. And, really, what knowledge is and growth is is just replacing, inaccurate stories with slightly less inaccurate stories. You know? It's it's the the stories that you and I believe today that have helped us so much get through our past struggles will one day fail and create our future struggles,
Dr. Mark Hyman
and then we'll have to update
Mark Manson
our stories again. And so that's just kind of
Dr. Mark Hyman
Then we're gonna need conscious software updates?
Mark Manson
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. We just need to be patched all the time. But I I truly believe that that is like, you never figure out the capital t truth in life.
You just become slightly less wrong.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm. And and so having this kind of perspective, you think, you know, does it help you avoid the the pain of the disappointment of failure?
Mark Manson
I think so because failure just illuminates the areas of your life that you're you were wrong, that your stories were inaccurate so you can update them. But, also, I think it's it's just a much better starting point, to assume that everything you believe in your life is already wrong and that you they just need to be updated with better, more accurate versions of the story. But, also, when you believe that you don't you're not gonna hold on to a story as, like, being, either irrefutable, capital t true because that's when the real suffering starts is when you, like, refuse to update one of your stories or one of your beliefs because you're like, no. This has to be true. This is like, there's nothing else can be more right than this.
And now now you're you that forces you to lie.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So how do you update the software? Because, you know, it's really hard to do that. Mhmm. And and are there practical ways that you found to actually help people do this? Because it sounds good.
We're talking about it. Sure. Great. You know, everything you can is gonna fail. You gotta update your beliefs.
You know, you're gonna grow as a result. You know, we've all experienced that, but it's usually with a lot of misery. Yeah. So you're talking about somehow recognizing this is gonna take the misery out of it and help you just kinda, you know, seize an opportunity. Like, I think, you know, I I I found that, you know, even though things are rough sometimes when shitty things happen, I go, okay.
This is a moment for me to pay attention. Yeah. And I can either keep repeating the same stupid shit or update my update my software program. Yeah.
Mark Manson
Yeah. I think dialogue with smart and open people who care about you, and who don't judge you, I think, is is absolutely crucial. Because it's like the thing about stories is that they they they're they're verbal in nature. Like, you at the very least, I think journaling or, like, writing out your thoughts and feelings on a subject and and kind of playing with what could be true or what might not be true. I think that's kind of a minimum starting place because you you need to play with the language around your beliefs and and discover the language around
Dr. Mark Hyman
your beliefs. Yeah.
Mark Manson
But I think having really good, open, compassionate people in your life is is is absolutely fundamental. Ideally, it's a a a partner, a friend, a family member, but at at a minimum, it's a therapist or a coach, you know, somebody who can kinda look at your story and be like, well, you know, like, what if this was true and not that. Right? Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's it's really it's so true. Like, I I I think this is critical because if you don't have a process, it's hard to get there. Mhmm. And the first process you mentioned was something is actually I did because after, you know, I left my last marriage, I was like, I'm never gonna do this again, and I don't care what I have to do.
If you meet never meet with anybody again.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I and I work with a coach, and what I had she made me do was every day, I had to write down all the stupid shit my head was saying. My my lower self. Like, just all the drivel that goes on between my ears that I just had to be fully honest about that I embarrassed to even say out loud, nonetheless, you know, write it down Yeah. And send it to somebody to read. I had to do that and religiously kind of investigate my own beliefs and thinking and and lower self.
And then at the same time, I had to try, which wasn't always easy, to call on my higher self Mhmm. To tell a different story Yep. About the truth. Yeah. To try to get to the truth.
And sometimes it was my higher lower self, which is the trickster that thinks it's the higher self. Yeah. Your lower self that thinks it's the higher self.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. You know, I do like breath work and yoga, and I'm enlightened or whatever. You know? And, I mean, listen. I'm a I was a yoga teacher before I was a doctor, so I'm not just a yoga teacher.
So just to be clear, but I love yoga.
Mark Manson
Happens a lot.
Dr. Mark Hyman
It happens a lot. But but the second thing was really, an addition doing that was was I recently started working with an, another coach, and I and I I asked for a 360, which is, for those who don't know what it is, it's basically I pick 10 people in my life from work, personal life, and they it was all anonymous, and they got to talk to my coach, and they got to completely unload all their perceptions of me, their views of me, their beliefs about me, their experiences, interactions with me, what it meant, how it occurred to them. And, you know, it's it's it was amazing. It was was a little bit painful for me, actually. Yeah.
I I didn't realize how I occurred to other people.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and one of the feedback I got was that people didn't feel like I was interested in them. Interesting. And and I started and they they felt like I was more kind of obsessed with myself, and and I would talk about myself, and and and they were right. And I and I and I and I kinda looked at what that was, and I kinda went all the way back into when I was about 18, and I had I really had no friends growing up. I mean, I was one kid that I think had was autistic that was my friend.
You know? You know, like Asperger's or something. Yeah. And and another guy who was you know, we played cards and stuff, but it it it basically, I was pretty lonely and isolated and disconnected, and and I thought nobody liked me because I wasn't interesting.
Mark Manson
Mhmm.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And and then I decided that in order to be liked and be accepted, I had to become interesting. And what I realized it did was it made me talk more about myself in a way that made me look good. Yeah. I went on this great trip. I had this great experience.
Look who I met. You know? Look Yeah. This fun shit I'm doing. Whatever.
Right? Yeah. And it really, like, occurred to me that I I really, was very I'm very interested in people, and I really do care, and I have relationships where that shows up. But, you know, I realized that I needed to focus on being interested
Mark Manson
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman
More than interesting. Yeah. But that's what was driving, and I wouldn't have really I wouldn't have really known that unless I'd gotten all this feedback from all these people that I care about and love. And it was really helpful in changing that belief.
Mark Manson
That's a great example of, yeah, updating a story. It's funny. I I did a seminar years years ago, where they had us do this exercise, which has stuck with me ever since. Like, whenever you have kinda, like, that negative dribble, you know, or just self loathing going on in your head.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I call my inner asshole. The inner asshole.
Mark Manson
So it was a really cool exercise. I I honestly, I forget who who taught it to me or where it came from. But, it's basically, you take 3 sheets of paper. 1st sheet of paper, you just write out all of those horrible things that you're feeling about yourself, or it could it could work with somebody else as well if you're really pissed off at somebody else. So you just first sheet of paper is just like all the negative awful shit.
2nd sheet of paper is you write all of the counter arguments and the positive things in the, like, the the sunny side and, like, you know, hey. He didn't mean it or you didn't mean it. You have good intentions. You know, you're just you're misunderstood. You're actually very compassionate, all this stuff.
Like, right now
Dr. Mark Hyman
take the opposite position. Take the complete Byron Katie talks about. Right?
Mark Manson
Take the complete opposite position. And then the third sheet of paper is the truth. That's good. That's good. That's good.
Try to try to find where the truth is between the first two sheets.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's good. I mean, in a way, what you're saying to people is, like, inquire about yourself in a in a disciplined regimented way, and 2, find people who you can who love you Mhmm. Who know you, who you can ask to be fully honest with you, and you will you can say to them, like, I really want your feedback, and no matter how difficult it might be, I'm here to listen to it. I'm not gonna react. Yeah.
And I'm gonna just try to receive it. And that's a scary thing to do. It is. But it it's so freaking liberating, because then you go, wow. I didn't know that I was acting like that or doing that or something like this or
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
People thought I was this or that. I'm like, you know and and, of course, you know, people are gonna project whatever they project and meaning whatever they make on you based on their own sets of beliefs and attitudes, and I think I've learned that a long time ago. You've gotta be cautious about when people give you feedback because it's coming from their own, you know, stuff. Right? And and that that's another thing that happened when I was 18.
I I I was backpacking in Canada, and I was I was by myself, and I was I was sleeping on the the river, camping out by in the spray river in Banff and working at a gas station, walking 6 miles each way back and forth to work every day to pump gas and get some groceries. And, I found this other camp with this guy, and one's an older British guy who, was just kinda mean, and he would just make fun of me and kind of insult me and ridicule me, and, and I and I was it was devastating. And I and I realized in that moment, it was like an epiphany. I said, okay. Either when people are doing that, it's because it's their shit that they're projecting onto me, or there may be something I should look at, and I should be grateful for that feedback even though it comes in a nasty package.
Right. And then it's an opportunity for me to look at myself and grow. And that really helped me kind of shift, and not be so much at the whim of what everybody was thinking. Mhmm. But but but this process is is really I really love it.
Okay. Next next one is is something called, you deserve happiness. I'm sorry.
Mark Manson
You don't deserve happiness.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Let's redo that. The the next one of your, you know, 55, simple ideas to change your life is you do not deserve happiness. In fact, you don't deserve anything.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That doesn't seem right.
Mark Manson
Well, the the most I would say the most you know, you and I were having this whole conversation around stories, the way we spin up stories,
Dr. Mark Hyman
the way we suffer because of our stories, the way we need to update our stories. Mhmm.
Mark Manson
I would say the most common story that our brain naturally spins up is you deserve this or you don't deserve that. Right? And it and it goes both ways. It goes you know? And I I think this it tends the the strength of the deserving story tends to be proportional to the intensity of the emotion.
So it's like the more we're hurt, the more more intense the the story we tell ourselves of either I didn't deserve this or I did deserve this or this person deserves that. And the truth is is that in most cases like, the deserving thing is a it's a very like, I think in in a legal construct, it makes a lot of sense. Right? It's like you rob a gas station, then you deserve some sort of punishment. But on an emotional basis
Dr. Mark Hyman
If you rob a a a drugstore in in California, you you don't deserve punishment. Is that how the law is now? Well, I
Mark Manson
don't know what the fuck the law
Dr. Mark Hyman
is these days. You shoplift. You know? Yeah. It's fine.
Mark Manson
You know? So I I the point I'm making is that there's there's, like, a legal level that you can make that there's the deserving story or the deserving argument. But I think on a personal level, it's just over the years, what I've the conclusion I've come to is is to just eliminate as many of these deserving stories as possible. Entitlement. Yeah.
Because it's you you can if you spin up stories saying that you deserve great things, sure, that can motivate you, can make you feel good, but it can also make you entitled. It can make you narcissistic. It can make you, you know, it can justify a lot of bad behavior towards other people. If you spin up stories saying that you don't deserve things, well, now you're minimizing yourself. You're limiting yourself.
You're making yourself more insecure. You know, it's like, how about just don't have the story in the first place? Like, do I deserve to be happy? I don't know. Right.
Like, some days I'm happy. Some days I'm not. Do I deserve that? I don't who the fuck knows? Right?
Yeah. Does it matter? No. Just do do the do the good thing.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I mean, I think I think, you know, it reminds me of when I was in college. I don't know. At least all these stories are coming through when we're talking, so I don't know. I'd have your We're revisiting your your your forlorn youth.
No. It was really, like, form things. And I was sitting I was sitting on the floor of my best friend's apartment, like, get a little, you know, room in in college. And he's he you know, we were both kinda hippies and, you know, backpacking. He says, Mark, you know, if you haven't placed sleep, if you have some clothes to wear and you have some food to eat, everything else is gravy.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I'm like, you know, you're kinda right. Yeah. And and and so anything else that comes is just, a gift or a blessing and not an entitlement.
Mark Manson
Totally. And and it's I think that's It's
Dr. Mark Hyman
very liberating.
Mark Manson
It's very important too because this kinda gets back to the condiment thing is that and this gets back to the the reference point thing, is that human psychology is such that our reference point for what is good or bad is is always changing, and it's always shifting upward. Like, the more our life improves, the more our baseline of what we expect of ourselves increases. Right? And so that's a perfect example of, like, you know, you've got food. You got shelter.
You know, you're healthy. You're young. Like, why do you need anything else? Whining? Yeah.
Why are you whining? Like, why do you why do you feel like you deserve anything else? Right? And and it's, again, it's it's the deserving story is a dangerous story because often our set points of what is a good life and what is bad life are just completely irrational and based on status games, power struggles. Yeah.
Silly frivolous shit that doesn't really matter.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's so true. Okay. Your last, you know, your last simple idea to change your life is everything you love will one day be lost. This is what makes life meaningful.
Yeah. And, you know, I've I've wrote a book called Young Forever about longevity, and and then the research for the book, there's a lot of scientists talking about this idea of longevity escape velocity, which means that the science will continue to evolve so fast that we'll keep extending our life faster than our rate of aging, which means we will never die. Yeah. And and, you know, I'm actually having dinner tonight with Brian Johnson
Mark Manson
How funny.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Who his who his whole whose whole, mission in life is don't die. Literally, he's got a whole brand called don't die. And when I think about that, I mean, yes, I would love to have another 60 I don't know. A 100 years of incredibly vigorous, healthy life
Mark Manson
Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And do whatever I wanna do. As long as I can be heli skiing at a 100, I'm good. But it's that sense that it's all gonna go away that makes it so precious. Like, every morning I wake up with my wife Yeah. And I'm, like, so excited to see her.
And every day, I'm like, oh my god. This is a gift because I know how precious and fleeting this is, and one day, it's not gonna be there. Right. And so it makes me value and and savor every moment in a way that, you know, actually makes life way more enjoyable.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So I'm I don't like the idea of not dying.
Mark Manson
I don't I'm glad to hear you say that. I'm actually curious because I I
Dr. Mark Hyman
I wanna be long long lived and healthy, but I I I wanna I think I wanna die.
Mark Manson
I I I'm on the same I'm a 100% on the same page. Like, I would be I'd love to live to 200. That sounds great, but, like, you know, at some point, I wanna get off the boat. And Yeah. And it's and it's because of this.
It's because I I meaning and value is driven by scarcity. And if as soon as something stops being scarce, we stop appreciating, and it stops feeling meaningful. And I so I just I don't think our our psychological mechanisms are, like, built to live in a post scarce existence. Like, I feel like this is so this is the this is when, like, the writer in me starts getting really excited. I start imagining, like, a sci fi novel of, like, a person who, like, realistically can't die.
Like, to me, that it's it's it seems to me that that would be an incredibly bleak existence. Yeah. Like, nothing would seem worthwhile. Nothing would seem important. No relationships would seem worth like, he that person would not feel inclined to speak to anybody because everybody you speak to is gonna die at some point.
So why create a relationship if you're just gonna lose it, and there's just gonna be an infinite amount of future relationships. Like, there's no there's nothing special or unique about that. So I think, like, it it calls into question is, like, what what becomes scarce if death is solved, and can anything be meaningful in, like, a post death existence? And I'm not sure that it can.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. We don't know. Who knows? Maybe maybe. Do do you do
Mark Manson
you think I'm curious. Do you think that, a longevity escape velocity is possible?
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, listen. If if you talk to my grandmother who was born in 1900 and you told her there were gonna be men walking on the moon and we're gonna have these super computers in her pockets that, you know, had all the features that our iPhone has
Mark Manson
Mhmm.
Dr. Mark Hyman
That we could interact with an intelligent source like chat gbt that would tell us anything about anything
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
In 3 seconds, you know, she would probably go, there's no freaking way that's possible. Yeah. I mean, there weren't even cars or telephones or phones or electricity or toy flushed toilets when she was born. Right? Yeah.
And and and so I don't know is the answer. There there are certain things scientifically that I've talked about and then they're in my book, certain, you know, things that allow us to do epigenetic reprogramming, essentially taking your cells that are old and reprogramming back to a younger you Mhmm. Through something called Yamanaka factors, and there's a lot of research going on around this. Aging research is in its infancy around longevity because it's it's wasn't even considered something worthy of research or study.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
The only reason it's getting any attention now is because a lot of billionaires are just really wanting to live a long time. So they're like Yeah.
Mark Manson
They don't wanna die.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So Or they or or they just wanna, like, figure it out. And so Yeah. There's, like, literally 1,000,000,000 of dollars, you know Yeah. From Google and Alta Slab and Jeff Bezos and Sam Altman and all these guys are just pouring 1,000,000,000 of dollars, and which I think is great because we're learning so much. But I I think, it may happen.
But listen. If I could if I could, you know, take a a a pill or get a gene in insert into me, that would, take me back to, you know, my mid thirties when I, you know, when I was the peak of my mental and physical performance.
Mark Manson
Yeah. Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Like That would be great. Yeah. That'd be if I could if I could you know, my biological age is 39 now, but my back age is, like, a 139. Yeah. So if I could get my back to be back to 39, I'd be great.
I'm with you there. You know, I'm I'm all for all that stuff, but I think there. But I think it's more about the meaning, and and I think the values we have. So, you know, just to kinda close-up a little bit, I I I think, you know, I wanna put you on the spot a little bit because, you know, your work is about kind of poking fun at all the positive psychology self help stuff and how how it's not really that helpful. But you're not against people actually thinking about how to create a philosophy and and a values that, it creates meaning in their life that that's different from the typical self help advice.
So how do we how do we, as human beings, start to create kind of a a value system for ourself that we can live through and with and in that allows us to be fully expressed. Because because for me, you know, I don't know what your philosophy is on this, but my my belief is that is that, you know, our souls, came here to get free. Mhmm. You know, that we we came here to be fully expressed human beings in the purest expression. You know, like like like, the Dalai Lama, I don't know if he's enlightened or not enlightened, but, like, I was at a conference with him on longevity, and he was on stage, and he was all these muckety mucks and Nobel Prize winners and this and that.
And he just was, like, looked around. He's like, nuh-uh. I gotta pee. And he, like, gets up. He, like, runs off the stage and goes and pees.
You know? Like, not trying to be anybody, pretend to be anything. Yeah. And just fully expressed present human being.
Mark Manson
Yeah. I mean, I I that that question about, like, what do we value, what is worth improving, I feel like that's the question of our time. And and I think as you accurately put it, you know, my my goal isn't to overthrow the self help industry or debunk the self help industry. It's really just to, like, realign it around healthier questions. You know?
And and analogous to what we're talking about with, like, the the diet stuff, it's like, you know, I most of what gets sold in my industry is the equivalent of a fad diet. And and I'm trying to be the guy who's like, no. No. No. It's actually just really basic questions that philosophers and and religions have been asking for 2000 years that we all need to ask ourselves.
Yeah. And even if you're not religious, even if you don't wanna meditate, like, tons of hours, like, these are really simple questions that I think in this day and age, we should all be asking ourselves and and thinking really hard about.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And you didn't pull us out of your ass. I mean, you you you you were deeply steeped in the research around a lot of this. And you Yeah. Talk about a lot of the studies that reflect, the underlying reasoning behind your thinking, like the marshmallow test or the Stanford Prison Experiment or studies by Marty Sigman about learned helplessness or the happiness research by Daniel Kahneman, the paradox of choice by Barry Schwartz, so flow theory and all these attachment theory and the list goes on, but you're you're not just kind of just randomly like kind of being a dick and saying all you self help people are idiots.
But it but it is there's a lot of great science, and often the science contradicts common sense.
Mark Manson
It does. Right? It does. It does. It's it's, we are again, this comes back to, you know, humans suck, try to suck less.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Like, it's
Mark Manson
it's it's we're not optimized for for real like, truth. We're optimized for self preservation.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
Mark Manson
And part of that self preservation is ego preservation. Yeah. And, so being aware of those mechanisms, is is extremely important to to maintain our mental health and and our our happiness. Yeah. So, so, yeah, and I just try to find fun and creative ways to to express those ideas to people.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, it's really kinda cool in this moment in history is is is the psychedelic revolution.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, there was this psychedelic revolution in the sixties, and actually, the CIA was responsible for it. They were literally doing I don't even know the story, but No. There's a great book called I mean, a movie called The Magic Bus, and it was basically about Ken Kesey, who was a who had one from the cuckoo's nest, and he got a grant to go write this book at Stanford in in Palo Alto. And, he didn't have any money, and then there was ongoing experiments there by the CIA on LSD. Oh, shit.
And so they would pay him to go take acid, and other people take acid, and then they'd put him in a lab, and they'd watch what happens. He's like, man, this stuff is great. And so he basically, you know, basically thought it was the next greatest thing. So he took a bus around the country and basically gave everybody LSD and went to, you know, out met Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, who became Ram Dass and then Yeah. Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg and then came back and, you know, kind of created the liquid jucalate acid test in in Menlo Park where the Grateful Dead basically was the house band, and they had
Mark Manson
I didn't realize it started that way.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It was basically a CIA started the psychedelic revolution and and the trade fighting. And and and now we're undergoing the 2nd renaissance where there's real research going on and a lot of the things you're talking about are are based on and the suffering that we have is based on the beliefs that we have about our ego and our small self and the survivalist, sort of software that's programmed into us. For sure. It has it has us as separate entities, as separate beings that have to protect and defend ourself and have to lie and steal, do whatever the hell we have to do to get ahead and to make sure we don't die.
Right? But psychedelics are really an interesting compound because set of compounds because they they basically shut off the ego. Yeah. It's what they do. Like, when they look at brains of meditators who've been meditating for 40 years on MRI, and they look at brains of people who are on psychedelics, the same part of the brain gets shut off, which is this ego part that is called the default mode network.
Mark Manson
Yep.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I'm actually having Michael Pollan on tomorrow
Mark Manson
Oh, cool.
Dr. Mark Hyman
On the podcast. Nice. Well, not tomorrow. You guys listening? It's not really tomorrow.
It's just tomorrow I'm recording it. Yeah. Yeah. Mark gets how it goes. Anyway, it's it's to me, it's really exciting because it's it's a way to shortcut a lot of the the suffering that people have, and we're seeing it as a far more effective treatment for depression, for anxiety, for PTSD, for all kinds of of, addiction, many, many things that people are suffering with on a mental level that prevent them from actually even being able Yeah.
To get to do the things you're talking about. So I think I I love your your, kind of, actually optimistic nihilistic philosophy. Yeah. That's good
Mark Manson
about it. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I like that combined with some of the new tools and Yeah. And treatments that are gonna be available that really help people get free. And that's that's really, I think, to me, what what your work was been about was about, jeez, you know, all of these things that people are trying to get free and be happy, they don't freaking work.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, yeah, people are selling a lot of books, but the reason your book caught on is because it it hit a chord in people that they kinda realized it was all BS, and they need to think about it differently. So it's it's just it's so great that you're out there doing this. You you you you you didn't mean to be you, you know.
Mark Manson
Do any of us.
Dr. Mark Hyman
No. But and you kinda you guys side you guys sideways a little bit, caught up in it, and I'm glad to see you back healthy and fit and looking amazing. I I would love, you know, to to help people learn how they can kinda connect more to your work.
Mark Manson
Sure.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, there's your book, obviously, the the subtle art of not giving a fuck. There's your other book, which is Everything is Fucked Yeah. But it actually has a hopeful title in it as well, which It's a book about hope. Yeah. It's a book about hope.
You know, it's like, okay. Everything's fucked, but let's be hopeful. But you also have a lot of online content, Mark, manson.net. But you've got courses and podcasts. And so tell us where where people can learn more how to kinda get into what you're doing.
Sure.
Mark Manson
So, obviously, the books I have a podcast called The Subtle Art Not Giving a Fuck podcast, comes out every Wednesday, and, a free new free newsletter every Monday morning. I just share it's called your next breakthrough, and I just share a a couple ideas, a question, and a challenge for all all the readers, each Monday. And then I share I invite readers to send their experiences from the challenge in, and then we post them in the next Monday's newsletter. And so we've we're up over a 1000000 people now. We've had amazing.
We've had over 11,000 breakthroughs. So check it out. It's free newsletter. Just go markmanson.net. It's
Dr. Mark Hyman
right there. Midwife for transformation. I love that. Okay. So last question is, what are you most excited about now in your life?
Mark Manson
So I'm doing I'm actually doing a series of kinda documentary style YouTube videos around, the intersection of culture and mental health. So we've shot 4 of them. We're gonna start releasing them. I don't know when this is coming out, but we're gonna start releasing them in October of this year. Yeah.
So it's just out in Hungary. Hungary has the most alcoholics per capita in the world.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Really?
Mark Manson
So we did a whole investigation of, like, what what are the historical and cultural reasons behind that. Portugal has the highest diagnosis.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Causes alcoholism? Paprika.
Mark Manson
It's all the goulash. Goulash.
Dr. Mark Hyman
Who knew?
Mark Manson
Portugal has the highest rate of anxiety disorders in the world. So we we went to Lisbon and spent a week there and talked to a bunch of psychiatrists, Portuguese psychiatrists.
Dr. Mark Hyman
They have those fried donuts that everybody eats to make them. I love how your mind just immediately goes to food. You're you're you're raised just immediately. They're like, what do they eat? Yeah.
Mark Manson
And then we've already posted 1, of South Korea. South Korea has the highest, suicide rate in the developed world, so we did one on that as well.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So you this is like the opposite of the blue zones. These are the, like, the gray zones.
Mark Manson
Yeah. Well, it's you know, every every culture I mean, everywhere has its mental health issues. Right? Every country has its mental health crisis, but it what's interesting is that it it manifests in different ways in different cultures. So, what's so exciting about this project is is just going and and trying to understand why it manifests in this way in this country.
Like, what is it about the the history, the politics, the economics?
Dr. Mark Hyman
And you're figuring it out, and then and then are you hoping to kind of provide insights about how they can get some relief?
Mark Manson
I I mean, I developed theories, and and and, ultimately, it's like it there are practical takeaways for everybody. Right? So, you know, in the case of South Korea, there the the wars that happened throughout the 20th century generated an in in like, a pressure cook cooker of a culture that resulted in this this, like, mental health crisis. And so it's like it it people can draw parallels to their own life. Right?
Because it's like we all have pressures on us for certain things, and there's all like, we all have traumas or catastrophes in our own lives. So, you know, ultimately, the goal is to give people takeaways. But for me, it's just as, like, a psych nerd and somebody loves to travel. It's just been, like, so
Dr. Mark Hyman
much fun. That's so much fun. Oh, I love that.
Mark Manson
I love it.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I love it. It's like, let me go on a trip around the world and look at people's mental health and do cool shit about it. Exactly. I actually wanna create a create a show like that. Race who I called, you know, you know, Food is Medicine Show where I go around the world and and, like, kinda Anthony Bourdain meets doctor Hyman.
Yeah. That'd be great. It's, I I, I'm excited about thinking about how we kinda show what's going on in the world and people learn because Food
Mark Manson
wise. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, just America's so ethnocentric in every particular way. So Yeah. I think half I think more than half the population doesn't even have a passport.
Mark Manson
Yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman
So, Mark, it's really great to have you on the podcast. I could talk to you forever. Yeah. I can think we'll continue talking for a long time.
Mark Manson
Forever, maybe.
Dr. Mark Hyman
If we
Mark Manson
solve if we solve in in a in a if we get longevity
Dr. Mark Hyman
If everybody's thin and happy, then we don't have any work to do.
Mark Manson
Yeah. We
Dr. Mark Hyman
just sit on the beach in Malibu and and watch the sunset. Works for me, man. Alright. Well, thanks for being here. And everybody check out Mark's work, and, thanks for listening to the podcast.
Thanks for listening today. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends and family. Leave a comment on your own best practices on how you upgrade your health and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And follow me on all social media channels at doctor Mark Hyman, and we'll see you next time on the doctor's pharmacy. I'm always getting questions about my favorite books, podcasts, gadgets, supplements, recipes, and lots more.
And now you can have access to all of this information by signing up for my free Mark's Picks newsletter at doctorhyman.comforward/markspicks. I promise I'll only email you once a week on Fridays, and I'll never share your email address or send you anything else besides my recommendations. These are the things that helped me on my health journey, and I hope they'll help you too. Again, that's doctor hyman.comforward/marxpicks. Thank you again, and we'll see you next time on the doctor's pharmacy.
This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center and my work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health where I'm the chief medical officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guest opinions, and neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services.
Now, if you're looking for your help in your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner. You can come see us at the Ultra Wellness Center in Lenox, Massachusetts. Just go to ultra wellness center dot com. If you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner near you, you can visit ifm.org and search find a practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who is trained, who's a licensed health care practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health.
Keeping this podcast free is part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to express gratitude to the sponsors that made today's podcast possible.
