How to Actually Calm an ADHD Nervous System (And Change Your Life) with Jenna Free

Mark Hyman, MD

Dr. Mark Hyman is leading a health revolution—one focused on using food as medicine to support longevity, energy, mental clarity, happiness, and so much more. Mark Hyman, MD is a practicing family physician and an internationally recognized leader, speaker, educator, and advocate in the field of Functional Medicine. He is the founder and director of The UltraWellness Center, Founder and Senior Advisor for the Cleveland Clinic Center for Functional Medicine, a sixteen-time New York Times best-selling author, and Board President for Clinical Affairs for The Institute for Functional Medicine. He is the founder and chairman of the Food Fix Campaign, dedicated to transforming our food and agriculture system through policy.

He is a co-founder and the Chief Medical Officer of Function Health. He is the host of one of the leading health podcasts, The Dr. Hyman Show with 150+ million downloads. Dr. Hyman is a regular medical contributor to several television shows and networks, including CBS This Morning, Today, Good Morning America, The View, Fox, and CNN.

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Full Transcript

Automatically generated. Please forgive any typos or errors in the following transcript. It was generated by a third party and has not been subsequently reviewed by our team.

Jenna Free
My executive functioning goes up when we get out of fight or flight. That's the main complaint of ADHD. So the symptoms go down because the dysregulation's going down. Enjoyment of life goes up, so we have a much higher quality of life when we're

Jenna Free
out of fight or flight. Kind of my biggest complaint about the current ADHD field is we're really slapping that label on it and going, everything you're experiencing is ADHD. Nothing you can do about it. All you can do is cope. Good luck to you.

No. It can get so much better.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Welcome, Jen, to the podcast. So great to have you on. Excited to talk about ADHD. It's a big problem for a lot of people. I think you have a very interesting frame on it and an interesting way for people to navigate, you know, differences that people have that are often debilitating if you don't know how to handle it.

So I'm really happy to get to talk about this.

Jenna Free
Me too, thank you.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So I want to dive into it, particularly your framework around how biological dysregulation, nervous system dysregulation, really amplifies the symptoms and makes functioning sometimes very hard in people with ADHD. And I just want to sort of start out by first saying that we are a spectrum of expressions as human beings and not all of our neurological differences are pathologic or problematic. In fact, they can be superpowers. And I think we're going to talk about that, but it's how you harness them and how you regulate yourself to use those differences in a way that actually help enhance your life rather than harm your life. But with that said, I wanted to zoom out for two seconds and give people a perspective I've developed as a functional medicine doctor treating patients with a whole spectrum of neurodevelopmental issues from dyslexia or ADHD to all the way to autism spectrum disorders and the whole gamut in between.

And I think there are increasing evidence that the brains are very responsive to what's happening in the body and that a lot of times when people have dysregulated brains, it often can be factors that are treatable, nutritional factors, nutritional deficiencies, gut issues, environmental toxins, infections, food sensitivities. There's a lot there's a lot of things that go into understanding how to optimize brain health and I've written a whole book about it called the Ultramind Solution. We have a course at Chris Lamonte called the Brain Shaping Academy, really about how do we optimize our brain. But that's sort of a topic for another podcast. I just wanted to sort of lay that out there as something people should attention to if they're struggling with ADHD.

They should really understand that there are often biological causes that should be looked at as well as just learning how to actually enhance your superpowers with the talents you have. So that said, I want to sort of dive in by asking you, Jenna, why are so many adults, especially women and people who are high achievers, suddenly being diagnosed with ADHD or ADD in their 40s, 50s, and 60s.

Jenna Free
Absolutely. So, you know, societally we did have a traditional view of ADHD. It's the little boy running around the classroom. And whether it be nature or nurture, little girls don't always act the same, so we go under the radar, myself included. It's a little bit more internal struggle and a little bit more working hard to compensate.

So from the outside, it's like, you're doing okay. Your grades are alright. You're not too disruptive. Just kick you along. And that happens long enough.

And then as you become an adult, you get more responsibility. And I know for me, that moment came. I was diagnosed at 32 when I had two kids in under two years and my life just was too big for my coping mechanisms to keep up with. And I really saw, like, I don't think this is quote unquote normal, what I'm experiencing, the level of overwhelm and intensity and struggle I was having. So that's when I started looking into, you know, just typing in my symptoms.

What's going on here? I didn't have the label even to myself of ADHD yet. I just knew, something doesn't seem quite normal.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And what were you struggling with?

Jenna Free
I would say overwhelm was probably the biggest, like sweeping the floor felt like, how am I gonna get the energy? It's just too overwhelming. My favorite quote that is in the book that I told my colleague asked my college roommate, do you ever not wanna take your socks off at night because then you have to put them back on in the morning? Like, god. Really just overwhelmed by daily life and thinking my capacity was low.

And then, of course, throw a newborn baby and a 1.5 year old in your arms, and it just all falls apart. And I couldn't I couldn't cope. And that's where it kind of fell apart where, oh, I was overwhelmed by just me.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And so and you think people just sort of lived with this and don't have any way to sort of contextualize their symptoms and think it's just them and that there's something wrong with them?

Jenna Free
Absolutely. Like, oh, life's just hard for me, I guess, and kind of carry on until often a breaking point of, you know, my coping mechanisms don't work anymore. So I also work with probably mostly women, some men as well, but I would say almost everyone's over 35 that's been recently diagnosed because, you know, it was working. I was able to frantically get stuff done the night before and just cope and keep my head above water. And then as we age, of course, biologically things change as well and just can't do it anymore and then the cracks start to show and then people are seeking something to explain it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
People have a lot of coping strategies that sort of hide their ADHD, like perfectionism, people pleasing, over preparing, working under pressure. Like, you know, talk us talk us through some of these coping strategies and how they kind of mask what's really going on and then prevent people from really interacting with what's going on with them in a way that allows them to to be fully thriving.

Jenna Free
So, you know, I'm gonna bring this in early because this is what I work on is, you know, I have seen that every ADHDer I've met, I understand it's anecdotal, but it's thousands of people are also in fight or flight. So being in fight or flight can mask the struggles you're having or you're at least surviving. Right? You are keeping your head above water. Perfectionism is a mechanism of being in fight or flight.

Right? Protection. If I do this perfectly, no one can criticize me. No one can get mad. I can't get in trouble.

Always feeling like you're about to get in trouble. And so you're just always trying to get out of harm's way, doing those things at the last minute, procrastination to urgency cycle. But then we feel like, well, it's a superpower. Look. I can hammer out a huge work project in one day.

So maybe this is just the way I work. And so you can see a lot of over compensation, masking, but all of those things are also symptoms of being in fight or flight. So it's a very tricky kind of ball of yarn that we're unraveling once we get an ADHD diagnosis. My wish and goal is that the first move is, oh, you have ADHD? Okay, let's get you out of fight or flight first.

And then maybe we're adding in the functional medicine stuff. We're adding in the coping mechanisms. We're adding in the tools and the strategies. But if we have a brain that's different and that brain is in fight or flight, it really is gonna feel like that debilitating thing that people right now call ADHD. And I think the field is putting it all in a bucket and calling it ADHD instead of realizing, oh, the ADHD brain tends to fall into this state.

Let's get it out of this state and make it a lot more manageable.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I wanna get into the dysregulation, the nervous system dysregulation that makes ADHD a lot worse. Sometimes, you know, people don't know they have it, it gets unmasked when things are happening in their life, whether it's, you know, becoming a mother like you did or, you know, working on your career or when you have to be a caregiver of your parents or going through menopause. Like, how do these major life transitions actually start to sort of trigger awareness that there's a problem?

Jenna Free
Well, I definitely see it as, you know, I love a good metaphor, is I have been keeping my head above water. Well, that does not leave much room for anything to change. Right? So once there's a little bit more to manage, I'm now drowning. So it's like I've just been just here.

You know? There's not a lot of room. If we're functioning where water is waist height, I can handle some changes. I can handle transitions. I can handle more.

But if you are just getting by, which, you know, being a fight or flight is survival mode. That's the definition of it. Just not dying. And then now your parents are your responsibility or this responsibility of kids raises that water, you can't not face it anymore because you're going under.

Dr. Mark Hyman
For you, like, your your your awareness really started when you were 32. You're in graduate school. You're raising two young kids. What kind of finally pushed you beyond your ability to to deal with things and compensate?

Jenna Free
I think it really was just the amount I needed to handle. As I said, I was just handling life before kids. So you start creeping that water up, and I'm I'm starting to drown emotionally. I, you know, had a quite not extreme, but definitely noticeable postpartum depression. I do think that was a direct reflection of my level of dysregulation.

I was now that I'm drowning, I'm really unhappy. And I can't catch a break, and I can't get a breath of air. And I was, like, panicking. And so that really started to go, like, I can't go on this way. It's just really hitting that wall of, okay, I was getting by, but I'm not getting by anymore.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And then you kind of realized you had to do something different?

Jenna Free
Yeah, absolutely. And that's when I got the diagnosis, which was great. Historically, I make a lot more sense to myself. I see why I do what I do. But then I carry on carried on with life and I was like, but nothing's changed just because I know something.

Right? That ADHD label doesn't solve any problems.

Dr. Mark Hyman
No. And and you're talking about these sort of highs, intense highs, and these crashes, and you thought maybe you had bipolar, depression. What was actually happening then?

Jenna Free
Yeah. So that was the fight or flight. So I really was in, like, two modes, in dysregulation. Right? Just like when we have a fever and our temperature's dysregulated.

I'm too hot. Now I'm too cold. Now I'm too hot. Your body's compensating in both directions. Well, same when we're in fight or flight.

I'm really intense, kind of running from the bear energy, and then I collapse. And then I'm intense, and then I collapse. And so we'll call that ADHD. We will think, oh, that's a normal part of the experience. But now that I focused on regulation for a while, I'm so much steadier.

So that up and down has really relaxed, and it was really interesting when I got into this field how I expressed this feeling of, you know, I was almost like, am I bipolar? Like, sometimes I'm intense and going hard and sometimes I'm crashed out and frozen. And the amount of misdiagnosis of bipolar disorder that people get before they get an ADHD diagnosis was so interesting.

Dr. Mark Hyman
People get all kinds of different labels, right? It's like they don't really see what's happening. When you talk about this frantic crash cycle and you see it a lot in adults with with ADHD, can you talk about what that is and what it means and how how you experience it?

Jenna Free
You know, when we're in fight flight, freeze or fawn because a lot of people think freeze is the crash. That's just another expression of my system is feeling so unsafe that I'm reacting in a certain way. Like a deer in the headlights, I like people to think of that freeze as deer in the headlights not collapse because it's different. But when we're in fight, flight, freeze, fawn, it's a very biologically intensive state to be in. Right?

You have that allostatic load, like constant stress, and I'm intent this is intense. Your body cannot sustain that forever, and so you will crash just like if as when we were primal beings, which we still are, we're just in a modern world, and you're getting chased by the bear and the bear leaves, now you're gonna go collapse in your cave. Right? And then when you get back up, you're on hypervigilance. I'm on alert.

Where's the bear? And then I collapse back in the cave. And so that's what's happening, but we're not in danger. So it's really negatively affecting us for no you know, you're not benefiting from it whatsoever.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And that just creates like a lot of of disruption in your life. Right? I imagine that was very disruptive.

Jenna Free
You know, I've really started to see that our society actually rewards sustainability more than intensity. Like, if you can show up at your job every day, make some progress, chip away at it, you are gonna get so much further than I'm showing up for a few days, like, really intense way, and then I'm collapsing for a few days. And then whether you're an entrepreneur working at home, like that is not a rhythm that works well in our world.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's true. It's true. We're so great. So a lot a lot of people with ADHD believe that they just like, they're really great under pressure.

Like, just, they need the pressure, they need the stress, you know. But like, what's the long term cost of using that urgency as the fuel for doing stuff in the world?

Jenna Free
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's why we have such high levels of burnout, everyone going on leave of absence, worked with an alarming amount of people who are on a leave of absence from work because that's not sustainable. And again, like we just mentioned, you kinda gotta live a sustainable life if you wanna live a successful life. You wanna be able to keep showing up in your life every day. And so it's it will burn out.

You will hit a wall, but also it isn't really working. Like fear motivators, so guilt, shame, urgency, and fear. So I guess those, like push motivators. I'm running away from something. If we harness those, I understand when you're in fight or flight, feels like, but without that, I have no motivation.

But that's because we're stuck in that cycle where the only thing that motivates me is being chased by the bear. The minute the threat is gone, my system collapses. So I have to use anxiety, pressure, deadlines, intensity. But that's the inherent trap of dysregulation is it's a cycle. The more I use those negative motivators, the more I need to use those negative motivators, the more I collapse when they're not present.

So now I need them more and it just gets worse and worse and worse versus when we're regulated. You're in more of a like, oh, I'm fine. I'm okay. I'm neutral. I'm just here.

And now I can use my pull motivators, desire, and oh, it'd be great to get this done so I have my weekend free. Like, I want to do things and I want to live a good life, and I want to get things done and do fun things. So once we get into those motivators, when we're more regulated, I compare it to, like, bear chasing energy versus berry picking energy. So when you, you know, when you go pick berries, oh, I'm going towards something. I want something.

It's a more sustained energy. I'm just collecting and productive, but I could sustain this. Whereas chasing from the bear energy, yeah, damn, you could run fast when the bear's chasing you or when your boss is mad at you or when your deadline is coming. But when that bear is gone, you have nothing left and, you know, that's not going to lead to this sustainable life that we're looking to lead that's gonna be much more enjoyable and much more successful.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Why why so how did you come to this idea that that that you're about your central argument, which was that ADHD and that chronic dysregulation are related but not the same thing? And then like actually how a lot of things that people think are ADHD are actually more dysregulated nervous system, fight or flight, it sort of amplifies it all. Can you kind of walk us through how you've sort of come to understand all that and why?

Jenna Free
When I did start working with clients with ADHD as a therapist, I did some courses, right, to get some specialization and I could tell, okay, so we don't know what to do with ADHDers. We are giving them tools, tips, tricks, band aids. It felt very band aid to me, like, use this timer. If you keep forgetting, use this reminder, use this calendar. We're drowning here.

I don't want another buoy. I wanna get out of the water. So I started to see but, you know, but I used that because that's what I was taught. So that's what I used with clients as I started. Course they wouldn't do it.

They wouldn't do anything. They'd show up to the next session feeling even worse because they didn't do what was assigned. And then I started to see, you know, hundreds of hours of talking to people. You start to see patterns. Like, oh, so we are all in a dysregulated, you know, I'm intense or I'm nothing.

All or nothing. That's my thinking is all or nothing. My behavior is all or nothing. My energy is all or nothing. Oh, okay.

Well, this is like our main problem, if we got those borders to come in a little bit and that pendulum swing to stop being so extreme, I think we'd get a lot further. So that's what I started working on and researching, you know, how do we do that? What is going on? Seeing, oh, that's a this is fight or flight that's happening. Okay.

Well, let's work on that. I am pretty stubborn and a hopeful person of, like, if I don't like something, I believe I can make it better. I just gotta figure out how. So for myself, I really started working on regulation and regulation alone to cope myself. And like within six months, a year, I'm like, I'm a different person.

This is crazy. Like, I can still see that I have ADHD. I still see some unique thinking. I still see, you know, a couple little potholes that I have to swerve around and support myself in. But it's like 10% of what I dealt with.

I haven't experienced ADHD paralysis in two or three years, whereas I used to live in that daily. And so, you know, obviously I understand this is anecdotal, but we've to start with theories somewhere of, okay, well, I see my brain has changed by doing this thing. What if the brain everything we're everything we're contributing to the brain difference is actually the brain difference in this state. Because we can get out of states. Right?

The brain is the brain. We have the brain we're born with. Obviously, like you mentioned, we can do other health stuff to support that, but the brain makeup is the brain. Okay. But what if we get it out of that state?

What happens? Well, you know, then you start learning how, you know, the symptoms of being a fight or flight are almost identical to the symptoms of ADHD. Do we even know what ADHD is? Like, being in fight or flight blocks dopamine receptors. ADHD is a dopamine problem.

Well, if we separate these things, what are we left with? And so it was really like a question on my end of, well, let's see. And it was so cool the other day because I'm starting to train other therapists in this approach. So I just sent out an email to my past clients like, do you think I should you know, therapists should be learning this and why? And I was just flooded with the stuff of, yes.

I've tried everything else. It's the only thing that made a difference. Yes. Like, everything else is a Band Aid. And these are people who were two years ago, and that's why I love it.

It's, like, once you see it, you can't unsee it. Once you're regulated, you know what that feels like, and you can sustain it. This isn't like a short term tip trick tool that's just gonna collapse when you get overwhelmed. It's really a philosophy and a way of living when you start seeing, oh my god,

Jenna Free
my executive functioning goes up when we get out of fight

Jenna Free
or flight. That's the main complaint of ADHD. So the symptoms go down because the dysregulation's going down. Enjoyment of life goes up, so we've

Jenna Free
got a much higher quality of life when we're

Jenna Free
out of fight or flight. So kind of my biggest complaint about the current ADHD field is we're really slapping that label on it and going, everything you're experiencing is ADHD. Nothing you can do about it. All you can do is cope. Good luck to you.

Like, no. It can get so much better.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, know, it's interesting. Isn't nervous system regulation important for everybody? I mean, you you you you wrote in your book. It's called The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulations, The Secret to Finding Balance, Getting Things Done, and Enjoying Life. Basically, I think the thing I I'm clearly aware of is that it it may be more important for someone who's sort of got underlying ADHD, but but isn't this something that's important for all of us?

Jenna Free
Yes. And that is why I'm currently writing my second book.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Which is really about how it yeah. How it affects all of us. Because you you have this this this model. It's called the ADHD regulation method, which is three stages. And and involves nervous system regulation, thought and belief regulation, and then behavior regulation.

Can you kind of walk us through each of those systematically so we understand how you're thinking about this? Because most people will go, yeah, I I know my nervous system's a little bit off. Yeah. I know I'm a little bit jacked up, and I know I'm I'm a little bit amped up, like but they don't know what to do about it. And and they know it's interfering with their quality of their life, their relationships, their work, but but it's it's it's hard to to sort of reset the nervous system.

It's not an easy thing to do. So it's actually easier to change your diet or exercise than it is to change your nervous system.

Jenna Free
Yes. Which which is why people, you know, when I'm talking about this work, they'll go, yeah. But what's a supplement I can take? I'm like, look. You're trying to bypass the hard work.

That might also be important, but, you know, it's harder work to do internal stuff where you have to manage yourself and go up against discomfort and but it's in this in the puzzle. We have to have that foundation. So we can't bypass it through, like, external stuff. We may add the external stuff, but just to point that out. But yes.

Absolutely. So the process is first physical, and I really focus on in the moment regulation versus task based regulation. So we have a lot of somatic exercises out there, you know, tapping, breathing exercises, yoga, meditation. It's like, did my meditation today. Check.

Moving on. And then you run around like a chicken with your head cut off all day, and then you meditate in the next morning. So I really focus on in the moment of, like, getting so good at knowing the exact feeling of dysregulation and symptoms of dysregulation. So things like, you know, tense muscles, a lot of us have TMJ trap tension because I'm like on the defense, shallow breathing, rushing, impatience, any physical signs of anxiety, anxiety itself, all of these things, when we're feeling them we go, I'm dysregulated. And we want to interrupt that physical state in the moment.

So if you're running down the hallway to a meeting, it's like, oh, okay, I'm dysregulated. Deep breath. Relax those shoulders. Slow down. We wanna communicate to the nervous system that you are not in fact getting chased by a bear, and we can only do that through action.

You can't talk to it. But if you're, you know, walking calmly to a meeting, your body goes, oh, maybe we aren't in danger. That's a possibility. And then it's much like working out at the gym. You gotta get your reps in, interrupt again and again and again and again and again.

But over time, your body starts kind of naturally going, oh, maybe we don't need to be in this physically intense state. And that's that's quite a bit more effective than, like, one off activities. Of course, adding those activities like breath work and tapping and all that stuff. Icing on the cake, that's great. But if you are drowning, if you are in survival mode, I find giving tasks to be quite fruitless.

They aren't gonna do it, and they're gonna feel shitty about not doing it, and then it's gonna get worse. So this is why I really like this, like, hey. Let's just build awareness and adjustments as you're living the life you're already living is much more accessible than any sort of more on the to do list.

Dr. Mark Hyman
More structured stuff. And it and it'd be something simple as just noticing how you're feeling and taking a deep breath?

Jenna Free
Yeah. Exactly. Well, especially if you're breathing shallow where that's communicating to your body, danger, danger. Okay. Like, that's gonna interrupt that state and go, hey, nervous system.

Nope. We're okay. We're safe. Look. I wouldn't do this if I was getting chased by a bear.

I wouldn't slow down and relax if there was actual danger near me. Look. Okay. And then you might speed up by the time you're at the end of that hallway. That's okay.

We just wanna keep bringing ourselves back down physically. You know, even if I'm working and I'm typing something, I might notice my shoulders are a bit up and I'm like, oh, yeah. You keep doing what you're doing. Like, you keep going on with your life. You don't leave.

I think that's something we're prescribed a lot of, like, take more breaks. No. That's training your nervous system that work is dangerous. Breaks are safe. Well, now it's really hard to work in a regulated way.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's true. And a lot people we know with ADHD or have these struggles, they get told what to do. Like here's productivity tools, here's a routine, here's a strategy, a behavioral strategy. But your your point is that nervous system regulation needs to come before all that.

Jenna Free
Totally. Because a drowning person can't put more on their shoulders. Like, we have to get you out of survival mode. Now you have the capacity. You have the energy.

You have the bandwidth. If you have no bandwidth, don't hand them anything. It's pointless. It's just gonna make it worse. And so that's the physical piece and that's where a lot of people stop, you know.

Oh, nervous system is body. It's somatic. Let's just do that. But our brains are connected to our it's part of our nervous system. Like, the way you think, the beliefs you hold are formed based on a body that's felt in danger probably your whole adult life.

Yeah. So our thinking is now dysregulated where we are very negative leaning. We're scanning for danger, very anxious thoughts, you know, fear, guilt, urgency, shame. We're often fighting with reality. We're feeling panicked all the time, and the the mental work is, like, to get us out of fight or flight or as well mentally.

But a lot of people go, well, you can't think your way out of dysregulation. No. But if you are thinking in a dysregulated way, you're gonna stay in dysregulation. Like, we have to get that brain thinking in a regulated way, which to me, a big part of it, I try to, like, sum it up. Obviously, it's a little more complex because it's the brain is a complex place.

But we wanna align with reality. So a lot of our beliefs are fighting with reality, which is very disregulating because you will lose that fight every time. Like, oh, I'm behind. I need to catch up. That is the number one dysregulating belief ADHDers hold that I've heard.

So if I believe I'm behind, need to catch up. I mean, there's no way I'm gonna relax and slow down. Right. Right? Because I'm not insane.

Like, I'm behind. I need to catch up. I gotta go. I gotta be fast. I gotta be panicked.

I gotta be anxious, and I gotta run. But that belief what that belief is saying is I should be over there. Okay. But you're here. But I should be further along.

Okay. But this is where you are. So it's like bringing that brain back to like, oh, I am where I am. Now let's take the next step from here instead of, I need to be further along. I need to be further along.

I'm behind. I'm behind. I'm behind. It creates this nervous system go straight back into panic mode.

Dr. Mark Hyman
This is like the behavior and this is the thought and regulation, The belief in thoughts that you have and managing those directly.

Jenna Free
Totally. And a lot of it's subconscious. You might not totally realize you're functioning from these core beliefs, but they're always so it keeps those gears turning and keeps that panic going. You know, another one is like, there's not enough time in the day. But there is the time there is.

Like, why keep fighting that? There's not enough time. There's not enough time.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It is true. It is true. Fighting with reality is not a good strategy for having No.

Jenna Free
It's like you're all you're never gonna change linear time and space. Sorry. That's just how it is. Let's make peace with that. You are safe to just be with the time you have and let's just use it.

But if I go, there's not enough time, I mean, that does not give me a relaxed feeling. That does not give me a calm present feeling. That gives me a panicked, pressured feeling. So now instantly again, back in dysregulation. So if we do not get this brain incongruence with the calm body we're trying to create, nothing will ever change in any sort of substantial way.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So you're so you're saying to sort of catch your thoughts and your beliefs and be more intentional about like examining them?

Jenna Free
Yeah. First, need to be aware of like, what are my beliefs and thoughts? You probably don't even know because you're moving so fast through life. It's just it's subconscious. We haven't stopped to think.

Or we believe our thoughts. We believe our beliefs, of course. But there isn't enough time. The amount of people that argue with me online, yeah, but I am behind. Okay.

But is it not more true that you are where you are? And they're like, yeah, but I have so much okay. That's all in your brain. It's not it's not that modern life isn't doesn't have a lot going on. It's just that we are thinking in a way that puts our system in a panic, that brings blood flow from the brain, from our digestive system into the limbs.

We're not thinking clearly. Our executive functioning is going down. Our logical thinking is offline. We can't be creative. We are now we're in survival mode.

Now I'm just trying to not die, which is gonna include a lot of seeking comfort, avoiding all discomfort, scrolling, spending, substance use, and I don't know why I'm doing it, eating. I binge ate for ten years and now I've have a healthy relationship with food for the last ten years. And I like, I couldn't binge eat if you paid me. Like, I physically don't have the capacity anymore because my system is regulated. Like it's it's so interesting how dysregulation affects everything.

But that's the the mind piece because we must work on our thoughts and beliefs and regulate them, bring them back down to earth, be at peace with reality, be functioning from, you know, where we are, which is a very kind of bigger, more complex way to talk about grounding. You know, we can put our feet in the grass, but we also need to bring our brain into the physical world instead of being up here in what I call potential. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, ideals, what ifs, negative self talk, judgments. It's just like a swirling vortex of dysregulation. Exhausting.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's true. It's true. And how do how do you help people kinda overcome that?

Jenna Free
So we do a few different things. So one is, like, being aware of that potential and reality. And I always ask my clients, like, how much of the time do you think you're in potential of, like, thinking about anxieties, what you could have done, what you should have done, regrets, past, future, judgments. 80 to 90 is the biggest. So 90% of your life, you're not even here in the physical world.

You are up here in panic mode, in hypervigilance. Like, good luck calming your body down. Like, we have to get that brain into, hey. It's safe to let go. You do not need to be hypervigilant.

You are not in a life or death situation here. It's okay to just be where you are mentally and physically and take the one next step from there. And then we and then I like to look a little closer and go, okay. What are your specific core beliefs? Kinda what's your narrative you have?

And for some people, like, oh, there's not enough time. I just feel a scare time scarcity constantly and that's like run that's my motor. Like, okay. We gotta start challenging that belief when it's coming up.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, it feels true. Right? It feels true. I mean, there's so much I wanna get done in a day and I never have enough time to do it all. So.

Jenna Free
I just posted something the other day about like, do you not have enough time or do you just wanna get everything done today? Which is more which is more true? Well, time is what it is, so maybe it's like it's a me thing. I'm trying to fit too much into too little of time and saying I don't have enough time. So just starting to realize like where can I make more peace with what is and that's gonna be, there is the time there is?

I can only do one thing at a time. I live in linear time and space. Okay. Let's get on board with that and go for the journey. Walk down the path of life instead of, I gotta get further.

I gotta get further. Like, it's just tiring and dysregulating, which then gives us all these symptoms that are so debilitating.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And and you're talking about like the behavioral changes too, like not just thinking changes or beliefs, like not just sort of somatic practices. But actually, what what what actually do you mean by the the behavior changes that you you sort of suggested?

Jenna Free
Yeah. So we have the body, we have the mental, and then we have the behavioral, which it's all or nothing thinking that we're really working on, but that creates all or nothing behavior. So we're really working on that behavior. I'm either cleaning the whole house and wiping the baseboards and deep cleaning the carpets or I'm not even picking the towel up off the floor. I'm either hammering that work project out the night before, I'm not even gonna start.

I'm either gonna do it perfectly or not even try. And we get in these behavioral patterns of extremes that we wanna start interrupting in a behavioral way. So we have to start finding balance in the way we are physically functioning. So yes, in our body we need to have more calm, get out of panic. Mentally we need to be more aligned with reality, but we also need to act in a more sustainable way.

And so that is going to look you're gonna see that more in your physical being. So for example, a lot of people who are in fight or flight, ADHD or not, are going to, you know, really have I wanna say cockeyed, but, like, imbalanced calendars. Like, I try to hammer all all my meetings on Monday so I can have Tuesday completely open. That's not regulated behavior. It's like I'm frantic and intense on Monday and I collapse on Tuesday.

You're setting yourself up for that. We wanna spread things out behaviorally, schedule wise, environmentally to go, oh, no. I could live this day again and again and again. If you are living your day in a way where you're like, I cannot sustain this, we are not in regulated behavior. So that might mean spreading the meetings out over the week, chipping away at a task instead of sitting down and hammering it out for twelve hours and then collapsing after.

And that's a retraining of the nervous system because it's gonna feel uncomfortable when you've been used to all or nothing thinking, which is a biological mechanism of being a fight or flight. Right? If you are in the forest in imminent life threatening danger, primarily, we need to think black and white. Safe not safe. Good bad.

Like, that's that's there on purpose. But now doing it in our situation, I am assuming people are physically safe, is completely debilitating and gets us in that. Like, I'm doing lots and then doing nothing and then I'm doing a lot. And as we've spoken about, a much more productive and enjoyable life is like, that's my sound for regulation. It's like, I'm making a little progress every day and that's building momentum and building into a great life.

And I'm not having these intense collapse patterns with how I'm doing things.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So it's just really about creating a more regulated nervous system, more deliberate practices, more awareness of your beliefs and thoughts, more simple behavioral changes that can help kind of move you toward a pattern that's sustainable rather than this sort of intense dysregulation and trying to deal with everything. It's like a I find often people just you know, do get overwhelmed and they kind of shut down if they have ADHD.

Jenna Free
Yeah. That's that freeze, deer in the headlights.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, you you kind of came upon this later in life. It wasn't something you got diagnosed with earlier for yourself, and you know, think being a mother was a factor and it's often a turning point. There's like sensory overload, interruption, lack of sleep, repetitive tasks, like parenting. How does that sort of you know, interact with this whole phenomenon that you're describing around ADHD and and dysregulation?

Jenna Free
I've really started to see that, you know, a very strong line in the sand with dysregulation of, but it is a stressful time, like having a baby is stressful, so it's normal to be in fight or flight or course I'm gonna be even, you know, bigger things like I have a very stressful job or this is a very stressful time of life so of course I'll be dysregulated. Dysregulation and being in fight or flight is only, only ever useful when you're in imminent life threatening danger. So that's something I like to put a line in the sand with of like, yes, I know you're gonna justify your dysregulation. You're gonna normalize it. You're going to see reasons why it's valid, But it's always hurting us regardless of if I had two two little babies or not.

Regardless of, you know, where my business is or how much I have going on at work, which just kinda gives me that oomph now and that belief now of like no matter what I have going on, I'm always keeping regulation in mind. Like, could I make this better? How could I find some relief? Even if it's a very big stressful situation, where where is the dysregulation making it worse? So in, you know, having new babies, that was a very hard time for me and that is not my forte.

I do not want to go back there and I do not want to have another child because it was very hard. So it's inherently not my cup of tea, but my god, had I known about the regulation work during that, I could have really taken a big layer of the suffering off of something that still probably wouldn't have been my cup of tea. But, yeah, kinda just speaking to what you're talking about, think, is just realizing, oh, it's it's always relevant regardless of what's situationally happening.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's true. Mean, it's it's important to just sort know yourself and to track your mind and your patterns. And you know, it's like I think it's important if you think you have something like this to go kind of root root around for the causes, also like to learn how to regulate your system. And I think your approach is powerful.

You were trained as therapist and counselor, and you sort of talked about your training a little bit and saying that you just got a sort of a grab bag of tools for ADHD. Tools, calendars, work different hacks. Like, what what did you feel like was missing from your own training around this?

Jenna Free
Yes. It felt like admittance or like, we've just waved the white flag. ADHD is what it is. Nothing we can do about that. It's like, would you tell that to someone with PTSD?

Well, you're in PTSD. Nothing we can do about that. That's just how you are now. You're just in fight or flight now for the rest of your life. Like, no.

You would never say that to that person. So why are we saying that to ADHD? It's like, well, this is just how your brain is. Best of luck to you. I find that so disheartening because a lot of people believe it.

And they think, well, this is just how it is and you know, you see a lot of stuff online about it's a disability, it's so debilitating, it's so horrible, it's not funny. I agree it's not funny when you're struggling, but this is not inevitable, it does not have to be this hard. You know, when people talk about superpowers of ADHD, I really do think there's some stuff in there that's really special. You know, being unique is not a bad thing, being different is not a bad thing but if you're in survival mode, yes, I understand how debilitating that can be. And the ADHD field loves labels and loves symptom labels of like, well that's ADHD paralysis, don't look at it any further, that's just what it is, accept it and move on.

Where in my approach, just as, you know, I work with people, I really encourage everyone to look under the hood of everything. Well, why? Why are you in paralysis? What's happening biologically? What's happening in your mind?

What's happening like, let's dig around there and figure it out. And it's always something. You're gonna pull some sort of threat of dysregulation, it's not just what it is. Know, ADHD paralysis is one of those things that I do believe and this is just a personal opinion, that paralysis is freeze. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn.

That is not an inevitable symptom. I do think there's some ADHD stuff that's still present. I would say my working memory is still rough. That is not something that's gotten better with regulations. I still see a few little symptoms here, but lot of it way dialed down and paralysis wiped out.

So, yeah, I really just think we don't actually know what ADHD is because we haven't factored for being in and out of fight or flight.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, know, don't know, you talk about these dysregulation goggles and you know, in terms of your training and therapists and like you, you know, you're probably imagining there could be a different way that doctors or clinicians could start to look for things. So what do you mean by dysregulation goggles and what should clinicians look for when they put those on?

Jenna Free
Totally, yes. Whether you're a client or a clinician, is like first observing symptoms and behavior as in, okay, well where's the dysregulation here? It's probably for every single client there's going to be some fight or flight, some dysregulation of some sort regardless what ever else they have going on. And the reason it's so important to look for it is because you can do something about that. Like the ADHD brain I have as the field seems to think is like that is what it is.

So why focus so much on that? Where can I find the dysregulation that I could improve? And so you put those goggles on, you start to see everything in terms of regulation, dysregulation, fight or flight. God, everything makes so much more sense when you look at it through that lens. Even other people, you know, someone's being so rude.

Oh, you sweet thing. Like, you're in defense mode. Oh, you don't feel safe. Like, okay. Carry on.

You're gonna have so much less disdain. You're gonna understand people and yourself so much better of like, look. We are all just little animals running around the world trying to stay safe. We are not as, like, developed and, like, complex as we like to think. And so when you can see that part of ourselves more fully and go, I see what's happening here.

Let's do something about it instead of, you know, over labeling everything and and assuming it's all just permanent, which is quite a hopeless state to be in.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. So just to really just to have a different perspective and understanding that there's actually a way through to help people who are dysregulated and have ADHD and can't function as well in life. That there's there's a new understanding that helps us sort of come up with a different approach rather than just saying like, just gonna deal with it or whatever we do, you know. Like, just make a checklist, know. It's not gonna fix it.

How about we sort of end with a few rapid fire questions? Okay. So what are the most overlooked signs of ADHD in women?

Jenna Free
Overwhelm would be number one. It's like if daily life feels so hard, that's not we've really normalized a lot of these things as well even in modern society, not just for ADHD but for everybody. It's like, well, life's overwhelming. No. That's not normal.

That is the sign.

Dr. Mark Hyman
In terms of the signs of dysregulation, what are you looking for? What are the most common signs?

Jenna Free
Common signs would be physically, shallow breathing, tense muscles and rushing. If people can really start clocking the rushing, that would be a really good start. And it's a little bit more physical, so you can kind of access it a little bit easier. If you are ever rushing, you are dysregulated.

Dr. Mark Hyman
There's Really? That's interesting.

Jenna Free
Yes. I tell my clients, even if you're late, I don't care. You in a tizzy panicking is not gonna get you there any faster. Like, it's not logical. It's reactive.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's interesting. So what what do you what is the first thing you do when you notice yourself rushing then?

Jenna Free
Slow down. Like, you have to interrupt it physically. You can't think your way out of it. So I had a client who was a therapist and so we're learning this stuff, she's like, yeah, yeah, I know about all this stuff, okay, but I'll look at, you know, see what I got going on this week. She came back, she's like, my god, I didn't realize I was like dragging my son home from school every day.

Like, come on, let's go. It's like to what end? We had nowhere to be. Why was I doing that? I'm just in this state of rushing and intensity and urgency constantly and there's no logic to it half the time.

But even when there is logic to it and reasons, it's not gonna help. It's only signaling to your system panic, panic, panic. So like for example, with that mom dragging her kid home, it's like, let's just walk calmly, even slowly. You have nowhere to be. This is it, this is your life, like, let's let's be here and and see what see what changes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. That's a very that's a very good advice. I mean, think rushing is, you know, when you feel so overwhelmed, you feel so many things you have to do, you just wanna kinda get it all done, and it it's just counterproductive, you know?

Jenna Free
Yes. All that's dysregulation. Trying to get things over with just because you said that, that's also another sign. Like, I'm not doing this. I'm not present in the process and, like, like, working through this to get it done.

I am like, let's get this over with. Come on. Come on. Come on. That's a sign right there.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So if your if your partner has is is sort of in this overwhelm, what what can you do for them? Like, do you how do you best be a partner?

Jenna Free
Co regulation's very powerful. If you can get your regulated because ADHD or not, we probably have some dysregulation. You slow down. Right? Not adding more to it, not trying to sometimes overly helping can be overwhelming too.

Well, why don't we do this? Why don't just slow it down. Just be kind of a like calm presence to kind of support your partner and having them figure out their own stuff as opposed to, you know, rushing things along or trying to fix.

Dr. Mark Hyman
In terms of the the the mothers with ADHD, what do they need more of to support them?

Jenna Free
Internally, we need more self compassion.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Love yourself. That's a good one.

Jenna Free
Yeah. Negative self talk is another sign of dysregulation. Your brain doesn't naturally think that way. It's trying to, like, motivate you in a negative way. Right?

Come on. Come on. Come on. I'm not doing this good enough. I'm not doing that good enough.

We have to get going. Everything's fine. You are doing a great job. Now you might still be like, okay. I'm being self compassionate and still wanna work on some things.

We can have both. A lot of people think self compassion is a cop out. I actually did a poll on my social media and 8080% of people said self compassion is a cop out. I'm like, no.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's crazy. No. Wow. They do.

Jenna Free
Have this belief of, if I am kind to myself, I'm letting myself off the hook, and being mean to myself is motivating and

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's not good.

Jenna Free
Yeah. These are these belief systems that really continue to keep us in fight or flight.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's it's true. Most of us in this modern world live in fight or flight. And even if we don't have ADHD, it definitely is all these tools are applicable. How about on the positive side?

What are the what are the features of your ADHD brain that you love?

Jenna Free
I think I think in a unique way, just my perspective. But, like, I spotted all this stuff because of the brain I have. Like, if I didn't have ADHD, don't think I would have seen this and been able to connect these dots and and explain it in unique ways and see it in unique ways where people are like, oh, I've never thought of it like that before. I'm just so grateful to be able to contribute a different perspective because if we all think the same way, why are we all here? If we all contribute the same insights, that's not very interesting.

So I just love giving an alternative even if I might not be seeing the same thing as other people do all the time.

Dr. Mark Hyman
True enough. Okay. Last thing. Finish this sentence. Living well with ADHD is less about and more about.

Fill in the blanks.

Jenna Free
Less about the ADHD itself and more about regulation.

Dr. Mark Hyman
There you go. There you go. Well, this is amazing. Think for those listening, I think a lot of people have some variations, particularly in our modern world is just all about distractibility. And I think you can have constitutional ADHD or you can have acquired ADHD given how completely fragmented and distracting our society is.

Whatever your experience is, learning the tools of self regulation, of nervous system regulation, of grounding in yourself is so important and then and your model really is very helpful. So I encourage you all to check out your book, Jenna. It's it's the simple guide to ADHD regulation, the secret to finding Balance Trying to Get Things Done and Enjoying. They can get it pretty much everywhere they get books. So Jenna, why don't you just tell us about how more people are gonna find you, where they can learn more about your work and find you on social.

Jenna Free
Absolutely. So my book, This Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation, can be purchased wherever books are sold. You can find me at jenniferie.com and going to that website will kinda give you all the resources. I have a podcast. I have obviously the book out and a lot of other free resources people can check out.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, Jenna, thanks for your work. Thanks for what you're doing and bringing awareness around this issue. It's something that affects a lot of people. So thank you so much.

Jenna Free
Thank you.

Dr. Mark Hyman
If you love that last video, you're gonna love the next one. Check it out here.