Why Chronic Disease Is Exploding - Transcript

Dr. Mark Hyman
We are food we wouldn't be safe to eat.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
We have a progress narrative that things are getting better and better because of tech and capitalism, and there are certainly areas where that's true. It's just not the whole story. Daniel Schmachtenberger is a social philosopher. System strategist studying how collapsing institutions And exponential tech are reshaping our health. Some of the effects of tech and capitalism create environmental pollution, cheaper health care, or cheaper food that has side effects and externalities that affect our bodies.

And so we figured out organophosphates, napalm, awesome. We can kill a lot of people and defoliate the whole jungle of Vietnam with this. Oh, guess what? We can also make an herbicide and spray it on all of our food. As you see in your clinic every day, it's all changeable.

And it's changeable acutely for each person with behaviors they can take, and it's changeable at scale everybody with behaviors we can take to do systemic changes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Before we jump into today's episode, I wanna share a few ways you can go deeper on your health journey. While I wish I could work with everyone one on one, there just isn't enough time in the day. So I built several tools to help you take control of your health. If you're looking for guidance, education, and community, check out my private membership, the HymanHive, for live q and a's, exclusive content, and direct connection. For real time lab testing and personalized insights into your biology, visit Function Health.

You can also explore my curated doctor trusted supplements and health products at doctorhymen.com. And if you prefer to listen without any breaks, don't forget you can enjoy every episode of this podcast ad free with Hyman Plus. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap try free to start your seven day free trial. Alright, Daniel. I'm so excited to have you on the show.

This is a long time in coming. We had many conversations which I've tried to keep up with. Understand how you think because I don't imagine many people heard of you, know about you, know who you are. But your background and your thinking is so remarkable in its depth and its clarity and its ability to bridge many different disciplines and come up with an overarching understanding of what's wrong in our society and where our existential threats are and how we can fix them. It's gonna be straight.

We're in a really shitty situation where we have more and more health care quote sick care and more and more illness. And it's exploding at such a rate that we can't even keep up with it. Just in my forty years of being a doctor, I've seen just the acceleration of chronic diseases and both in the amount of suffering, the severity, the scope of them, the increase in new diseases. It's just it's remarkable. But the last, you know, a hundred years we've seen this sort of inversion of of of the life expectancy curve.

It's kind of got starting to dip down, and we're starting to see a drop in life expectancy. And I think it has to do with the kind of rise of what you have termed anthropogenic disease.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
First, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I followed your work for a very long time before we got to know each other through Institute of Functional Medicine and things like that. Obviously, over the forty years you've been in practice, that was already after the better living through chemistry boom started and modern industrial agriculture started, so it would be even a more extreme picture if we went back further. You've obviously studied the history on going back further.

A lot of people think, oh, well, the rise in diseases is just a result of we're diagnosing more or something like that as opposed to, no, there are ways. Like we have a progress narrative that things are getting better and better because of tech and capitalism and democracy and whatever, and there there are certainly areas where that's true. It's just not the whole story. Right? There are areas where some of the effects of tech and capitalism create environmental pollution or cheaper health care or cheaper food that has side effects and externalities that affect the environment but help affect our bodies.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So so let's talk about that. I mean, let's dive into what, you know, we're we're sort of set the stage for the fact that, you know, we we're having increasing rates of these chronic diseases, increasing rents of mental health crisis, increasing rates of neurodevelopmental issues, decreasing life expectancy. I mean, it it's a grim it's a grim situation, and we're spending more and more and getting less and less. So the question then is, you know, what is this context in which the disease occurring? Why is this happening?

And and what are the anthropogenic reasons for this chronic disease epidemic?

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So you were as you're going through the list, you mentioned vitamin d, you mentioned mercury, that's obviously deficiency, toxicity. You mentioned some pathogens. You mentioned stress. So you have a model of like what the underlying categories are. And a lot of them are things like everybody knows what acute deficiency is, what acute toxicity.

You just got a bag of chemicals poured on you. You have acute poisoning. You're vomiting. You have to go in for toxicology. But there is something that is called toxicity that is not just a hippie nonsense idea.

It's a real thing. It is not acute poisoning

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
That is chronic, that is subclinical or subacute. Same with infections. There's you have acute infection, you're producing symptomology versus kind of subclinical infections, which is in Lyme disease or in, you know, viruses that cause cancers or whatever it is. So the treatment of everyone's gonna be personalized, not based on a disease diagnosis, but based on their actual medical history, their symptomology, their labs, and what's uniquely going on for them. But it's gonna be personalized within a framework that is kinda not that hard.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. That's right. I mean, the laws of nature are pretty simple. The Pierre Laplace said, they're they're if the laws of biology when I think we're describing them and I think we're getting toward approximation of what that looks like. They're just, know, functional medicine is just a heuristic.

It's not the end all and be all. It's just a framework that we're continually evolving to understand the complexity of human biology, which is infinitely unknowable. But even though it's so complex, you know, a rocket ship is complicated.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Right?

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's it's but it's knowable. It's a known known.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Well, there's a blueprint

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
That specifies it completely. Yeah. And DNA is actually not a blueprint.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
It's a generator function, which can make a new protein that's never made exposed to a new thing.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Right? And it evolved rather than was designed, which is why it's self repairing. Right? The the rocket ship doesn't self repair. It doesn't self evolve.

Yeah. And so biology is is not mechanics. Right? It's like it's a different unique thing that to have a system that self organizes, wasn't created by from the outside, that has an immune system. Right?

Like, it'd be dope if our computer had an immune system, but it doesn't. Or our right? Things that self evolve. And so we're like, okay. What's happening in a system that is building itself, evolving itself, repairing itself is obviously different in type than a system that doesn't repair itself, that doesn't evolve itself.

So we have to make sure we're using the right epistemology, right, the right kind of scientific framework. So you were talking about laws of biology, and we're talking about anthropogenic stuff, which is like stuff in the current world that is different than the evolutionary environment even though our genes aren't different. Yeah. Right? Like, modifying the environment in a way that we are not actually genetically fit Right.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That mismatch is really why we're sick.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So let's talk about that a little bit because I think the the first thing is a lot of people are still suffering from the propaganda of Hobbes and Hobbes' descendants. Right? Man in the state of nature's life is brutish, short, nasty, and mean. Right. And as you already mentioned, the average life expectancy was 30, and their life was shit the entire time until they were 30, and, you know, that's nature.

Right? That's just nature. That's human biology. That's nature and our civilizing ourselves. Technology is creating longer lives and everything's getting better and better.

And this is like awesome propaganda if you're colonialists and you wanna kill all the natives.

Dr. Mark Hyman
We're we're helping them by killing them because they wanted to suffer so much.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
I mean, Churchill has a famous quote that says, I'm gonna paraphrase it. I actually have a whole list of quotes about Manifest Destiny of Kings. I mean, Manifest Destiny in The US and Divine Right of Kings and like just stuff that when we look back, we say, wow, that was the most dreadful propaganda nonsense. Right. But we still do the same kind of thing.

Yeah. But Churchill said something like, you know, I don't hold for one second that our treatment of the red man is a bad thing in any way because evolution selects for higher life forms and a higher species replacing the lower species is good. Right? And you're like, That's a big deal. So North And South America, The Americas before Columbus, etcetera, right, before colonization was roughly, depending on who you look at, a 140,000,000 people.

And within a short period of colonization, both from infections and war and driving them out of viable habitats, the population was decimated by ninety percent. And if you look at that and you compare it to whatever, 6,000,000 Jews in the Holocaust. Right? And you're like, 190% of a 140,000,000, which is so many different civilizations that had different languages and songs and art and pharmacologies and just gone. And similarly, so many ecosystems, so many species, like we don't have the giant sloth, we don't have the mammoth.

Those were largely though many of those were early human extinction Yeah. From over hunting, from destroying habitats. And and, of course, it makes sense that, like, if the winner writes history, of course, they're the good guy. Right? The winner's not gonna say, we were the bad guys, but we we're better at weapons than them.

Yeah. We destroyed them because they were peaceful and lovely. No. We're gonna say they were they were brutish and terrible, and we brought democracy and Christianity and whatever. You know?

It you can say Christianity. You can say Islam. You can say whatever the thing is that is justifying why it won. So there's something where it's like the the dominant narrative of a power system has to justify the power system, and so it's gonna be apologism to the power system. We saw that through the Conversations, through the dark Right.

Ages, through the and so history is hard. Right? Because we gotta read this stuff that's written by the winners. Yeah. And you're like, in general, more peaceful cultures got slaughtered by more working cultures.

It's not like everybody that Genghis Khan slaughtered was a less good civilization. No. They were less good at war, but how many people that knew how to live in more peace got slaughtered in the process? Because they didn't build maximally lethal militaries. And yet, we are the descendants of who made it through history.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Which was bit of war and weapons and killing

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Growing massive populations Mhmm. Not keeping populations in stable relationship with their environment, good at technology that can be used in competition and war. So it's a really interesting selection criteria. So then we tell the story. Oh, they only lived for thirty years, and life was terrible.

But you were just saying, like, hey. No. Actually, of the Plains Indians were living to a 100. A lot of them were living to a 100. This is such an important story because I think one of the things that I want to get across in this conversation is there's still this general idea that is a part of the progress narrative, that is a part of just propaganda, say.

That is that diseases come from nature. Man in a state of nature's life is brutish or nasty and mean. Right. And the progress comes from science and the application of science and technology brought to the world via the market, blah blah blah. And now look at how long we live and, you know, vaccines solved all these issues and whatever.

It's not that there's no truth to it, but it is cherry picking the stats

Dr. Mark Hyman
pretty heavily. Ninety percent of measles was gone when they've introduced the vaccine because of better sanitation and health.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
This is pretty important part of the story. And so if you rewind a little bit to say dark ages Europe, this is not an indigenous culture. And then if the indigenous cultures you're studying post science, which is very recently, are post Trail of Tears after you've already slaughtered most of them, move them to an area where they don't understand the plants or animals and that were like crap areas, and then they're drinking and whatever, you're like you're like, this is not a study of indigenous people. So there's lot of indigenous scholars that are like, come on. This is ridiculous.

Like, no. We had a lot of people that were 100 years old. There's a lot of diseases we just didn't have. So this idea that, like, that diseases just come from nature. Our genome is a bummer.

Right? Like, nature's a bummer. Tech is gonna solve it. As opposed to, like, actually, technological agriculture has really made a lot of people sick. Technological mining and etcetera that has caused ubiquitous pollution made a lot of people sick.

So when we say anthropogenic disease, we're not just talking about iatrogenic. Right? Anthropogenic meaning diseases we have that are a result of our own action as a species. So if you take mining for instance, right, there's there's 2,000,000,000 tons of municipal waste produced every year. Waste that, you know, like, comes from our house.

It's a lot. 2,000,000,000 tons, like, blowing when you think about it. Mhmm. There's about a 190,000,000,000 tons of mining waste produced every year.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's a lot.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Because you mine stuff, but that rock isn't it's not all the thing you want. Right? You want a particular metal. All the stuff you don't want is waste, is tailings. That stuff is almost all super toxic, and it gets put in some big dam that eventually breaks and all goes in water.

This is comprehensively undoing what took the biosphere a billion years to do that made life possible in the first place. This is you'd actually mentioned something. I I wanna it's a tangent, but I wanna double down on this. Maybe there's aliens. Who knows?

We're not gonna get into that part right now. But when we look out at the universe, we see a lot of planets that are not habitable. And we don't see a lot of places that look habitable. This place is pretty awesome. Any.

Right? Carl Sagan's pale blue dot is as relevant today as it was back then.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So this like, the fact that it's habitable to life is a big deal. We should want to protect it more than anything.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Not move to Mars?

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Obviously, if you deal with radiation and other issues, point four g is a pretty tricky issue to deal with. Right? As you see, the people who go into zero g and they do a lot of resistance training and everything to try to deal with it, bone density goes down, neural density goes down. Right? Neural density drops pretty massively.

So, you know, like, obviously, we have all fit to this planet. We have a planet that supports life. It's rare as can be. Right? It's everything we care about depends on that.

And it took a long like, the other planets didn't do that. It's at least in the time period that we can see, that's very special. It took a, whatever, a billion ish years for geological, hydrological processes to make a space where abiogenesis could start to happen, right, where life could start to emerge. Mhmm. And that was trapping all the super toxic stuff in which life couldn't emerge in rocks in the lithosphere and making a certain temperature range and, you know, whatever that life could emerge in.

And then it took, like, a billion years of just single cell creatures Mhmm. To make a biosphere in which multicellular creatures could emerge and on and on. And and then you look at the biosphere, a complex biosphere, and you're like, it's pretty much six atoms. Right? Like, there's 92 no.

I'm put

Dr. Mark Hyman
it on the table.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yeah. Oxygen first. Right? Like, 65% of our body by weight is oxygen. Mhmm.

Because water. Oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, phosphorus, calcium make up 96% of our weight.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
And you add the few electrolytes in there, and it's 99% of our weight. And then you have trace minerals, and the trace minerals are important. They're a tiny bit, but roughly every animal, plant, whatever, has the same distribution of trace minerals, the same building blocks, the same type of molecular bonds. It's a humongous deal to understand. Me and you and a dog and a mouse and a scorpion and a tree and a fungus are made of the same stuff.

Same atom, same molecular bonds. Mhmm. Which is why any of them can die, go on the soil, turn into soil, turn into new stuff. A tree can fall, body can fall, an animal can defecate. Rattlesnake poison.

Right? Like super duper poisonous stuff is still the nature of the bonds. It dies, breaks down, doesn't stay as an enduring toxin.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Unlike plutonium, which stays around forever.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yes. Or PFOS or whatever. Right? Serophone. Because those are either atoms that were not part of the biosphere that we got through mining or molecules that we made up in a chem lab that nothing in nature knows how to break down.

Right? Like your bond. So just to get a sense of, like, part of what allows evolution to work is that we're all made of the same stuff. Mhmm. And we need the same physics.

Right? Obviously, the North Pole to the Equator are different temperatures, so polar bears don't do very well in the savannah, and cheetahs wouldn't do very well in the Arctic. But the temperature difference from the North Pole to the Equator is almost nothing compared to everywhere else in outer space. Right? Suns are really hot.

Well, some things are very hot, some things are very cold.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But, like, everything here operates with the same pressure, the same physics, the same ionizing radiation, the same chemicals, the same temperature ranges. That's a big deal to get. And the same chemicals and the same molecular bonds, a huge deal, and it's part of why coevolution works, why there can be mutual symbiosis, is we are literally recyclable into each other. Yeah. Right?

Now, if you think about from that perspective how rare life in the universe is, how rare the biosphere is, how it's all based on basically the same six atoms, same molecular bonds, and a little bit of trace minerals. You think then you start to think about how mind blowingly stupid mining is.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Taking other weird things out of the earth that should be buried in there and

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Things?

Dr. Mark Hyman
That we should be protected from because they don't do well with our biology.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Things that are omnitoxic to all life forms. Right? Like mercury is bad for all life forms. Cadmium is bad for all life forms. Lead is bad for all life forms, etcetera.

So fortunately for us, the Earth has a lot of those, but they're all bound in rock in the lithosphere under the biosphere, not part of the biosphere. Don't have to deal with them. So what do we do? We say those are useful for industrial purposes, so let's actually destroy the biosphere on top to make a mine. Let's pull this rock up.

Let's pull that super toxic thing out through smelting and metallurgy and whatever. And if we just kept it all in a perfect metal and recycled, it'd be one thing. But we burn the coal and put the mercury and lead in the air. We put the lead in the gasoline, you know, and aerosolized it. We and then the also the rest of the part that is toxic tailings also goes out.

So you're like, we have one planet that we know is habitable. It's habitable because of specific chemistry, and we are as fast as possible making omnitoxic shit that chemistry can't deal with.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And that's a big part of what's making us sick, and it's something that medicine sort of ignored, which is this chronic low level burden of toxins that we're all exposed to. And we're all basically assessable. If we were food, we wouldn't be safe to eat. You know, the average newborn has 287 toxins in their milk and cord blood. Wait.

Wait.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
They take their first breath. We see the same thing in the mother's breast milk. Right? And her blood, like, just people need to have the sink in. Mother breast milk, mother's blood, baby umbilical cord, two to 300 petrochemical and and industrial toxins.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's crazy. Mean Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
You should still level is ridiculous, actually.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I I I I I've I've thought of a business of creating a, you know, breast milk filter. I don't know how you do that, but

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Well, the lymphatic system is a filter

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But it can only filter in our evolutionary environment, we were not exposed to organophosphates. No. So what evolutionary process can deal with organophosphates? And so we figured out organophosphates, napalm, awesome. We can kill a lot of people and defoliate the whole jungle of Vietnam with this.

Oh, guess what? We can also make an herbicide and spray it on all of our food.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Glysate.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yeah. To think about this thing that we invented as a chemical weapon to destroy nature

Dr. Mark Hyman
at scale. Napalm, which is dioxin.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Same molecular class. We figure out, oh, we can kill weeds in agricultural settings, but we're gonna spray it on all the food, and humans are gonna eat trace amounts of all of it. And the pesticides, like, the thing that blows my mind about pesticides, you're like, okay. Nuclear modeling. Nuclear war happens, nuclear winter, almost everything dies.

The only things that make it are bugs with exoskeletons. Exoskeletons. We wanna make something poisonous enough to kill bugs that can make it through a nuclear winter, and we spray it all over our food

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
And then eat it. And just because we're bigger, we it's it's not a lethal amount, but it's a long

Dr. Mark Hyman
accumulates and it's additive. And over time, it's sort of like that's what I see so many so many of the times that we see. And in many of the diseases of aging and chronic diseases we're talking about, including autoimmune diseases, are all the result of this total load phenomenon. It's not just one thing. It's a total load of everything.

And you keep adding and adding and adding.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
When you say low level, it's important to say so we're talking about lead poisoning. Right? There's like, you have acute lead poisoning, you have Mad Hatter syndrome. Mhmm. Okay.

That happens because you're working in a lead mine or some industrial source. Right? But how much was there in an evolutionary environment? None. So what amount is good for you?

None. Right.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So That's why I laugh when I see the reference range on the lab of, like, the level of mercury that's considered normal is one zero to 10. I'm like, well, there's no biological requirement for mercury. It's zero is the normal level.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yes. Yet, that would mess up so much industry that the industry is gonna lobby the EPA to make a number that doesn't mess up the industry too much. Mhmm. And the cost, the externalized cost is your children's health

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
And your grandparents' health and your health and the cancers that everybody's gonna

Dr. Mark Hyman
get. Yeah. I see this. I mean, I I I saw this kid in my practice years ago. Mother was just so such a good, attentive, observant mother, and she she saw this kid who went from a normal little kid to being extremely difficult, extremely aggressive, violent, learning difficulties, dysgraphia, dyslexia, just a whole bunch of things, neurodevelopmental things.

And, you know, she she said we live North Of Albany in this town where

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yep.

Dr. Mark Hyman
There's a cement plant across the street from the school. This is this is why the history is so important. How many doctors ask your patients if they live near a cement plant or a coal plant? Not nobody asked that. Right?

But it's part of the history that we find really essential. And she said every day after school, the the cars would be coated. Like in Austin here when it's pollen season, like your car is just coated with pollen. Their cars every day were coated with dust from the cement plant and that duct quote dust was a toxic soup of chemicals. And when I actually did a chelation challenge test, which again is something we don't do in traditional medicine, but we look at your blood levels and that can tell you if there's an acute exposure.

And often there there are levels that are significant. You see kids for example high lead from environmental exposure, but it's it often is stored in the tissues. And so we give a drug called the DMSA, which is a FDA approved drug for chelation. That's a Greek word that means to claw, to bind some things or binds the metals. And then we collect the urine and we saw this kid was just everything was just lit up, you know, arsenic,

Daniel Schmachtenberger
a little one of the things you said is you had to use a different testing method. Yeah. Right? Because, of course, if there's something that's circulating in the blood, it's gonna cross the blood brain barrier, that's gonna go into the kidneys and hurt the nephrons. It's so dangerous to keep in the blood.

The body will excrete it as fast as it can. If it can't excrete it fast enough Mhmm. It wants to get it out of the blood.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's So you

Daniel Schmachtenberger
do a blood level. Blood level's the wrong thing to do. Right? Yeah. If you're not looking at tissue levels, which is what but tissue biopsies are not a noninvasive thing to do.

But this is just important to be like, people could say, oh, this nonsense. I've ran the labs and nobody has heavy metal. Well, are you running the right labs? Very important topic. And again, there's some theory under it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right. And one of the one of the, you know, one of the gold standard tests for lead, for example, is looking at in bone levels through various specialized types of imaging that are used in research. And that's what you should be looking at instead of like the joke I always tell that, you know, this guy drops his keys on the street and he's looking for him in his under this light post and his friends like, what are you doing? He said, looking for my keys. He said, where did you drop them?

He's like, drop them down the street. So why are looking here? He said, the light spit are here. And that's what we do in medicine. We tend to do testing that we have available, but not the right testing.

And and I even remember an article in the New England Journal of Medicine or JAMA. It was one of those who was talking about like mercury and and they said, we check the blood because that's the easiest thing to do. I'm like, well, that's not where you wanna check, you know, to see what's really going on. And and so this kid these kids who were living at the cement plant were were severely affected by these. And by treating them and getting rid of the metals and decreasing their toxic burden, they were able to actually recover and do well.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So everybody most people know the story of leaded gasoline, tetraethyl lead being added to gasoline. Most people don't know the story well. There's actually a exceptional video on this made by Veritasium, a YouTube channel online that describes the, you know, tetraethyl lead story. It was an additive for gasoline in the early phases of internal combustion engines that stopped engine knocking, as in not even absolutely crucial. Heaps of other chemistries that could stop engine knocking as obviously we know because we don't have lead anymore.

The early studies that were done on tetraethyl lead on toxicity, the people did get sick, including the researcher, and the results were hidden. So it wasn't that we couldn't have possibly known. It was we actually knew, hid it, and brought it out anyways because of the economic interest. And then to think about, like, what what adding lead to gasoline means, which is you're aerosolizing it. You're not just putting it in the water or the soil.

You're literally atomizing one of the most toxic chemicals that exists and putting it into the air at scale. Right? So, of course, even though it was already known toxic, that was hidden, and then the companies that were producing the tetrathol lead fought really hard to keep it there and not ban it. And it only finally got banned after the preponderance of how much harm it was causing got proven decades later. The effects when you look back in just America are estimated at a billion points of IQ loss for Americans.

Yeah. And staggering. I just would like people to make dumber. Yeah. A billion points of IQ loss for a population that was less than 300,000,000 people.

Yeah. Is a lot of IQ loss. And then there were also studies on increased violence and aggravation Yeah. That showed that populations that were heavily exposed had something like four x impulse control disorders.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Impulse controls, cold performance, cognitive deficits.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Not to mention the bone issues, the osteoporosis, the cancer, everything else. But if we just look at even the psychocognitive elements, because one of the, like, again, one of the bullshit stories that is realpolitik is like, it goes back to the Hobbesian story. It's like humans are kind of dumb and nasty. That's why we need rule. Right?

Humans are kind of dumb and nasty. Well, empirically, we made humans dumber and nastier with just the aerosolizing lead. And you're like, who would the humans be? Yeah. If we weren't if we hadn't done that.

So then you say, okay. Well, that's an old story because we got rid of lead. Well, no. Those effects are enduring. And it shouldn't doesn't go away.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's in the soil still. It's in

Daniel Schmachtenberger
It's still in most of the pipes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's in the pipes. Right.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Right? It's like water. The whole

Dr. Mark Hyman
thing that happened in Flint, Michigan.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But Albany's worse than Flint, Michigan. Yeah. Even though we supposedly banned lead and gasoline, it's still used in prop planes. It's still used in certain military and farm equipment and other kinds of things. So we're still using it.

It's supposedly banned around the world, but it's still used because not enforced in the third world pretty heavily. But then the lead that comes from mining, specifically mining affluent. There's a study I saw in 2019 that showed children under five lost seven hundred and eighty million IQ points just in 2019 just from lead.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, it's interesting. It's not just that it affects your cognitive function, affects everything. You know, there there's was a really pioneering study that I I saw in American Journal of Cardiology where they found that anybody with a lead level of over two. And by the way, the lead levels that they thought were harmful were 40 and over. Yeah.

Then it was 20. Then it was 10. Now it's 10.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But that was not based on proving that they weren't. That was based on lobbying from the company, from the industries that produced the lead that wanted to not have that much restriction.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But still, the lead levels of quote normal is one to zero to 10. Right? Right. And and this American Journal of Cardiology study, they found that

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Excuse me. I was saying the arguing for it being higher was the lobbying side. The proving the toxicity brought it lower, but it's still as you're mentioning one to 10.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. So one to 10. So it's still pretty bad. And and what they found it was in terms of kids cognitive function, it was a continuum from zero to 10 still cause a problem. It wasn't like you had no effect.

So that that's been well proven. But what was was really interesting was the American Journal of Cardiology found that that if your level was over two Yeah. Two out of, you 10, which is thirty nine percent of the population of adults and kids. It was a bigger risk factor for stroke and heart attack than having abnormal cholesterol

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Which nobody talks about. So you go to the cardiologist, they're not checking your lead levels And one of the And

Daniel Schmachtenberger
even if they did, that's only one fifth of the allowable level.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right. What's really interesting is that there was this whole movement in the seventies and eighties for chelation therapy, which was thought to be quackery. And the NIH did a $30,000,000 trial called the TAG trial where they use EDTA IV chelation. EDTA specifically removes lead, and they found that it was very actually effective in preventing heart disease and heart attacks, and yet it's not part of standard medicine.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Lead increasing heart disease more use it more than cholesterol markers? Mhmm. Yeah. And how much do people hear about the safe, quote unquote, safe levels of lead compared to cholesterol when it comes to heart disease from the cardiologist. Right?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Nobody.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But and again, we're not just saying within the safe range. We're saying not even close to the top of the range. Yeah. Right? Someone would look at and they'd be like, I'm near the bottom of the range.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Like, yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
No. Except the range, you're like in evolutionary levels is not even the right scale because we're calling one to 10 is actually like one to a million in terms of what should be the right part per billion scale.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, there were moments in human history where there were volcanoes and there was exposures, but not not much. Right? Not much. Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
In terms of like the famous topic people like to talk about right now of what caused the fall of the Roman Empire. There's a whole

Dr. Mark Hyman
Lead pipes. Hypothesis about Well,

Daniel Schmachtenberger
lead was added to sugar to make a particular kind of sweetness, and lead was actually added as a food additive and to alcohol plus the lead pipes plus the lead pipes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Actually, I did love the story. I have a few patients who, you know, wealthy and you know, they they get fine crystal or they they have wine out of leaded crystal. I remember buying wine glasses once and I went to the store and I'm like, you know, these are $5 a piece and these are $50 a piece. I'm like, why is this $50 wine glass? She said, well, it's, you know, it's leaded crystal.

I'm like, leaded crystal? Why? He says, well, because the lead makes the wine taste sweeter. That's why kid eat paint chips because it tastes sweet. I was like, wow.

And then they have fancy glazed plates which are from Italy or France, which is the glaze is full of lead. So you can get it in lots of different ways.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
The fact that in 2019, children under five globally had seven hundred and eighty million points of IQ loss. That's like, that should be up there in crimes against humanity. It's like whoever the fuck did this needs like, the whole industry needs to be punished. Like because those kids' lives are ruined. Right?

Like, massively ruined forever. The the civilization that those kids run Yeah. With less cognitive power as we're moving into an increasingly complex world.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
And the IQ is obviously just one thing. It's increased heart disease, increased cancer, increased osteoporosis, and increased impulse control disorders, aggression

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Like their psychiatric components. So sicker, dumber, and meaner. And we're just talking about one And

Dr. Mark Hyman
and and you're right. I mean, you know, they looked at at the children of the farm workers in California who were supposed to large amounts of pesticides and herbicides. That that cohort of kids that they studied lost 41,000,000 IQ points Yeah. Just from exposure to pesticides. It was not just lead.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So you add the pest icides up. You add the lead up. You add the mercury up. You add the the there's 350,000 chemicals that are in regular industrial use that are regulated, something like that. There's 280,000,000 chemicals in the database of the American Chemical Society.

And we're talking about like things that were not part of our evolutionary environment, are not part of the makeup.

Dr. Mark Hyman
The thing that I think we we have a way of talking about disease in medicine, you I got cancer.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
I Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Got heart disease. I got diabetes. I got Alzheimer's. You don't get it. It's like it's not like a bug that you catch or a cold.

It's it's a consequence of the environment in which we live. And that's that's sort of what you're talking about. Because a lot of a lot of populations look very old. I mean, the the the Plains Indians had a highest number of centenarians at the turn of the century of any population. They were hunter gatherers.

And so it wasn't like every hunter gatherer died at 40. But the last, you know, a hundred years, we've seen this sort of inversion of of of the life expectancy curve. It's kind of got starting to dip down and we're starting to see a drop in life expectancy. So I think, you know, we we we're not taught that these things are fixable. But if you understand the underlying root cause model of medicine and understand how to identify the root causes and figure out also how to create a thriving human and provide those conditions.

Because right now, as you know, you sort of talk about this anthropogenic disease, this really means we've an environment in which disease flourishes. It's sort of a disease causing culture, society, environment, food environment, toxin environment. When you kind of remove those things as best you can, these diseases can reverse. I had a guy who was living in Pittsburgh who was seven years old and he and then I didn't know this but Pittsburgh you know, they they they had the steel plants and they they heat they they use coal to you know, make steel. And they use the coal ash to cover their fields and to when there's snowy icy roads to put them on these snowy icy roads.

And coal ash is full of lead and mercury. And he was extremely mercury toxic and also had other issues. He had insulin resistance. He had gut issues his whole life. So he had a lot of dysbiosis and gut inflammation.

He had methylation issues, a b vitamin problems. We had a whole series of things. It wasn't just one thing. But you add all that together Yeah. Plus his APOE double four status which puts him at risk.

And he was presenting with Alzheimer's. And yet, by a very aggressive detoxification program, by getting the metals out of his system, by chelation, which is heresy in medicine, by giving him methylating support, optimizing his gut function, fixing his insulin resistance. He reversed his cognitive decline and he was actually able to improve his mental status and go back to work, which was again something you just never see. I mean who's who's seen a survivor of Alzheimer's?

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Well, I know that you have for a long time known Dale Bredesen and his work in the space. Mhmm. And I think you are friends with someone I'm good friends with, doctor Heather Sanderson, who wrote recently reversing Alzheimer's. And I think that was a number one, you know, New York Times bestseller for a while. And that particular study that she did there was an inpatient using a Bredesen like protocol

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
That was reversing the MoCA scores in seventy percent of the people that went in within six months with pretty basic stuff, like diet, lifestyle, and a little bit of Yeah. Functional medicine.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And the MoCA score is a sort of a cognitive assessment that's easy to do and and it's pretty predictive of of where you are in the trajectory of memory loss and dementia.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Now, this is another one if you look at Alzheimer's historically versus now that is really a disease of modernity. Do you wanna say

Dr. Mark Hyman
Alzheimer's did diagnosis way back when in the turn of century with, you know, this patient he had. But it it the rise in dementia is staggering and it's and it's one of the most costly conditions for humanity, not because of the direct medical care, because of the long term care that they need and because of the loss of the ability to work for their caregivers, their family members. So I've seen a dramatic increase in dementia and cognitive decline, and it's sort of peril the rest of the chronic diseases that we're seeing increasing. And people say, oh, we're we're winning the war on heart disease. Mean, nonsense.

We're seeing less deaths because we have better advanced medical treatments

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Like bypasses and stents and trauma last thrombolytics and blood clot dissolvers. But we we we are seeing more and more people getting heart disease. Right. More and more people getting cancer. More and more people getting diabetes.

And more and more people getting dementia. So despite the fact that we're spending trillions of dollars on healthcare, we're we're not getting much for our money. And this is kind

Daniel Schmachtenberger
of shocking. People need to understand statistical warfare as part of information warfare is that you can cherry pick your stats. Yeah. Right? And you can lie with facts.

You can mislead with facts. You can say less people are dying, and what you're alluding to is the issue's getting better as opposed to there was even one case in which the stats were used that less people were dying of gun violence, and they were suggesting in that the gun violence went down, gun violence went up, just emergency care so people didn't die

Dr. Mark Hyman
after That's right. And Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So it's entirely possible just to speak to the larger political environment, and this is a bipartisan kind of universal marketing driven issue, is people who are pushing a narrative at scale usually have a motive to push the narrative, political motive, a capital motive, or something. Right? And so you can take the whole story, just take parts of it, and you can have facts that make it through the most rigorous fact checker that are true, but are still misleading.

Dr. Mark Hyman
What did Mark Twain say? He said there's liars, there's damn liars, and there's statisticians.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yes. As you're mentioning, winning the winning the war on heart disease, what you're actually seeing is the rates of heart disease are increasing. And so this is like this mortality morbidity trade off Yeah. Right, which is, oh, no. We're people are living longer.

And recently, there's been a downturn in, you know, living longer, but, like, that kinda doesn't matter if the latter part of their life is on is on polypharmacy, is on a huge amount of meds with decreasing quality of life and only being kept alive kind of artificially. Like, if someone gets off their meds, they die. That's kind of like they're on life support.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Exactly.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Which speaks to quality of life. I think a lot of people don't understand the mortality morbidity trade off and the the stats that are cherry picked to say longevity is going up or heart disease is going down, what it's not indicating. Is there more on that you would say?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I mean, think we're we're we're we're losing the battle on disease. We're we're spending more and more. I mean, we spend twice that of any other nation, often three, four, five times as much. We're forty eighth life expectancy and going down.

Our or or a lot of our statistics are worse than most of their countries.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
That's just it's worth saying again. Forty eighth in life expectancy.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I think we're going down. It's getting worse. And that's crazy.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
With a $5,000,000,000,000 a year health care budget.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. We're we're I think thirtieth among the top developed nations in health care metrics like infant mortality. And, you know, we're we're spending huge amounts. I think forty percent of people who are 65 take five or more medications a day. Twenty percent take 10 or more medications.

I think Some of which

Daniel Schmachtenberger
are for the side effects of the other meds.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Yeah. You know, eighty one percent of Americans are in at least one medication. So is this making us healthier? Yeah.

I don't think so. I mean, it's mitigating symptoms sometimes. Maybe it addresses issues sometimes, but we know that our health care system itself is, and is the thoroughly cause of death through prescribed drugs given for the right reason at the right dose for the right patient, not mistakes. Medical errors is another huge category, but I mean, the Wait.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Let's put those together, because when Ralph Nader was kind of popularizing this topic, some of the issues have gotten better on iatrogenesis. But if you take iatrogenesis to mean diseases that come from interaction with the health care system writ large, the broadest definition. So then it includes, as you mentioned, prescriptions that are rightly given, prescriptions that are wrongly given, and allergic reactions to meds and drug interactions and whatever, surgeries, infections you get well in the hospital, etcetera. If you add those up, many people add those up and it's the number one cause Yeah. Of death of Americans in the country.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Basically, we shut down all the doctors and hospitals and got rid of all the drugs, we'd do better. We're not saying

Daniel Schmachtenberger
that because, of course, we don't wanna do statistical warfare because they're also saving lives. Yeah. Right?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Sure.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But we can say, damn, we should be able to do better on that side. And we can. Right? Like you have plenty of clinical cases where you're saving more lives and causing much less iatrogenesis, and it actually costs less money when you factor all the matriculated things. There's obviously absence of acute symptomology does not equal a good definition of health, because we all know cases where someone went to the doctor for a routine checkup and they find out that they have cancer and not that long to live, and that cancer has been developing for a long time.

And as you're mentioning with pre diabetes, a long time before the acute diagnosis of now you have diabetes and you have to take a med for it, you were in metabolic syndrome. And a long time before the autoimmune disease that produces enough symptomology, you had inflammatory markers that you could see.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
How many years ahead can you see signs

Dr. Mark Hyman
of Decades. Exactly. Decades.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Now if you see it decades ahead and you haven't had a humongous amount of tissue damage, you can do stuff about it. By the time you've got to advanced tissue damage, it's a lot harder. Yeah. Right? You can still do stuff about it, which is amazing and, you know, your clinic will attest to that.

But I I mean, in med school, there's this stages of disease, which is you start with health is all the homeostatic systems. And homeostasis is kind of a silly term because it's not stasis. Right? So the homeodynamics.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So you have all these homeodynamic systems in the body that are responding to various stressors, and the level they're at matters less than their responsive capacity. Right? You want to be able to respond to hot and cold and to pathogens and whatever well. So you've got homeostasis or homeodynamics. Then you've got deviation from homeodynamics.

Something comes that takes you out of range and you don't respond properly. What is that something? Right? We'll get back to that. If that doesn't come back in range, if it comes back, great, you're still healthy.

If it doesn't come back in, then you have pathophysiology. Right? The physiology is operating differently as a result of that. If you keep operating differently for a long time, you'll start to get pathomorphology. The structures will start to change.

And oftentimes it's not until after that that the symptoms occur. And that's when you go and you get the diagnosis, and you've been in a very advanced development of illness that whole time. So obviously you don't want to wait till symptoms, and most people are walking around with a lot of symptoms. Yeah. Which means actually pretty advanced disease relative to what good health would be.

Mhmm. And so obviously, an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure thing.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I did a podcast recently with someone who's studying this compound that comes from pomegranates and walnuts and berries called ellagitannins that gets converted in the gut through the microbiome to a common called urolithin a that helps recycle old mitochondria. And there's not very many things to do that. So maybe we've kind of evolved with these plants to help us do our body's work. And then there's, you know, the right balance of hormones.

It can be hormonal deficiency. It can be deficiencies of light and circadian rhythm and clean water and clean air, which are all things we need. And movement, exercise, rest. So it could be like parasympathetic activities like meditation that restores our nervous system's function, sleep, adequate sleep, connection, love, meaning, purpose. These are all, you know, belonging.

These are all things that we need. And if you even something as as obvious as belonging, if you're lonely, know, you're it's like smoking two pack of cigarettes a day in terms of your risk. So you kinda go through that whole list and you can kinda see where people are. And some of those things are just a consequence of our modern world like the increasing isolation, lack of connections, lack of belonging, lack of being part of a tribe. And it maybe is why we see such an increase in tribalism and divisiveness in society because people are wanting to be part of something even if it's bad, you know, like a gang.

Right? Or it could be AA or it could be Weight Watchers. It's all still a club. So I think I think we have this kind of interesting moment where we're starting to kinda map out what these things are that that impair human resilience and function. And that's really why we call it functional medicine.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
I think everything you're saying is kind of intuitive if someone is not excessively indoctrinated in an alternate thought process and makes sense, but I I wanna formalize it a little bit. The first thing is that you're mentioning disease having many causes, and that's in distinction to the idea that it has no cause. It's just whatever. We don't understand

Dr. Mark Hyman
Just random acts of the universe.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yes. Or single cause. Right? In which a single molecule for a single molecular target would make sense.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. You eat saturated fat, you get high LDL cholesterol, you get heart disease. It ain't that simple.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Complex causation versus simple causation is a major part of the story. Right? And simple causation is usually immediate. Right? You're exposed to something, a pathogen, a poison, you're starving, and a disease that correlates to it exactly starts to happen immediately.

Delayed causation, as you mentioned, certain diseases, can find early signs that we're moving in that direction in utero, or even the predispositions in the mother's body that are going to affect the developmental environment of the baby. So acute versus kind of chronic is a major part that we wanna make a distinction. The other is single cause versus multifactorial because you're mentioning this person's dementia was a whole suite of toxins, lead and mercury and whatever, and a whole suite of deficiencies, and a whole suite of maybe subclinical infections, maybe behavioral patterns, and maybe psychological patterns.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I'd very curious of what you think about this, the the entire medical research paradigm has been set up for drug discovery. It's the randomized double blind I wanna go there.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Wanna get to reductionist medicine, but before we go there, you already explained kind of subacute toxicity, but subacute infection you didn't get into yet. Most people like dysentery is very obvious. Yeah. But there are things where there is a chronic GI infection Yeah. That isn't dysentery.

Will you talk about that for a little bit?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. You know, I think I I think we think think of infections as something that, you know, come and go. But the truth is and AIDS, you know, I I grew up in the era of AIDS. I I I went to medical school in that era. I I did residency at UCSF, which was the epicenter of the AIDS epidemic with the gay community there, and it was the number one admitting diagnosis to the hospital where I trained in my residency.

Nobody died of HIV infection. People died of all the other bugs that happened to live in us and on us that get unleashed when your immune system isn't working. Yeah. So whether it's pneumocystis infection of your lungs or cytomegalovirus, which is a common virus that we all carry, like, you know, people have herpes and they you know, people know this. Right?

You have herpes and you get a cold sore when it's

Daniel Schmachtenberger
People know it for oral herpes or genital herpes, but they don't know there are more kinds of herpes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
No. There's a lot of kinds of her CMV is herpes, Epstein Barr is herpes. They're just herpes, the whole family of viruses. But but people know, oh, I have herpes, which means when I'm stressed or when it's cold out or when I'm tired or when I get a cold, I get a cold sore.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That People understand that there's this latent infection in their body. But there's so many of those and there are there are often hidden and they're latent and they're maybe marginally symptomatic or not symptomatic. Even tick infections can cause all sorts of issues and be latent and then they they emerge. Or, you know, even even with COVID, we're now seeing this, you know, when we're seeing replicating COVID viruses in people who've recovered months or years later in in their bodies that are producing ongoing effects that lead to long COVID and and persistent disease. So

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So just so people have a sense, what percentage of people have CMV? What percentage of people have Epstein Barr? What percentage of people have some strains of HPV that are part of pathogenic predisposition?

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's a lot. I mean, I would say everybody's walking around with something, you know, I think probably. If you look, most people have some Epstein Barr that's kinda hang hanging around that can emerge and be problematic. Probably half the population has CMB. Yeah.

You know, it's it's a lot of people.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
There was a there was a study I found interesting that was looking at removed prostate cancers that were removed for cancer Mhmm. And that were biopsied and doing viral assessment on it, and found that the combination of EBV and HPV was present in the vast majority

Dr. Mark Hyman
of them.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yeah. And so that's not one or the other. It was actually the combination. Yeah. And obviously, we know HPV causing cervical cancer, causing throat cancer.

That's kinda new though. Right? The people really understand that. And h pylori causing stomach cancer, and obviously, like EBV causing chronic fatigue, but it's pretty reductionist to say EBV causes chronic fatigue. There are people who have EBV who get other diseases, MS or something.

There are people who have EBV who never get chronic fatigue, and there are people who have chronic fatigue who have a load of other viruses or pathogens

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
That aren't EBV.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. We're talking about, like, the infections can cause a myriad of problems. Like, herpes can lead to increased risk for Alzheimer's

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Right.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Which you know doesn't just call the cold sore but maybe something more serious. And that doesn't mean all Alzheimer's is caused by bacteria. But you know, look at Rudy Tansey's work and there who's a Alzheimer's researcher and he he talks about how there's they do brain biopsies are finding all these bugs in the brain from the microbiome, viruses, from other bacteria that may be causing an irritation that leads to the deposition of the amyloid plaque that everybody sees on the microscope, but is only a secondary response to some other triggering factor. That if you dealt with that triggering factor, you might not actually get Alzheimer's.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So this is something that Rudy Tansey's work is good at, Bretison's work is good at, is Alzheimer's isn't one disease. Yeah. Right? Some people have described it as type two diabetes of the brain, some people as rheumatoid arthritis of the brain, some people as infection of the brain. These are all true

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Different times, which means different treatments. So if you hear that somebody has rheumatoid arthritis or MS or Alzheimer's, you don't instantly know what you're gonna do.

Dr. Mark Hyman
No. I don't. I don't. I know I know there's a there's a group of things I'm gonna look at.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Like, I'm gonna look at things that piss off the immune system. Right? Toxins, allergens, microbes, stress, poor diet. Right? All the deficiencies of certain things like vitamin d we know is increasing risk for MS because it's important neurologic function and immune function.

So, you know, I think we we we kinda have to come to terms with this framework of multi factorial causes and multimodal treatments. And we just we just have failed to to be imaginative in how we do research. No. I think we're

Daniel Schmachtenberger
saying you're saying two things at once that are important. One is the disease doesn't have one cause. Mhmm. So but you're saying think about causal stuff, the disease doesn't have one So it could seem overwhelming like what it says all these things.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Rather than just labeling disease and then treating the label with a drug, we call it the name of blame and attainment system. We name the disease, then we blame the name for the problem, then we attain it with the drug. So we say, oh, you're hopeless hopeless and helpless and sad and depressed and I know what's wrong with you. You have depression. Well, no.

That's just the name we give to people who share those symptoms. It's not the cause of those symptoms. It could be a myriad of things from what you're eating, your microbiome, from nutritional deficiencies like vitamin d or folate or excess of toxins like heavy metals or mercury or gluten that create a plane inflammation. So there's a lot of reasons why you can have any particular disease and we just we have it all wrong and I think it's a real shift. It's a real shift in thinking.

So medicine needs to move from this name and blame it process to what we call thinking and linking where we start the thinking process once we make the diagnosis. We start to try to create an understanding what are the patterns in the data, are the story that's being told. How do you take a deeper diagnostic history? How do you do deeper diagnostic laboratory testing and work to kind of see what's at the root root cause of everything? And by peeling back that layer, you can start to see emerge a picture of of a chronic disease epidemic that it is rooted in things that are caused by I would say man.

And I think that's something in a way it's good news because it means we can have agency over it. It's not something that just falls from the sky that hits us on the head that we get struck with some illness. It's it's actually now something we understand what it's about. Yeah. It's not just better diagnosis.

Trust me, the autism epidemic is an example. We've went from one in ten thousand when I was born to, you know, one in a hundred and thirty. Even if fifty percent is better diagnostic or seventy five percent is better diagnostic criteria, it's still something's going on.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
I think it's worth just going into this a little bit because vitamin d deficiency in terms of acute causation is rickets. And not many people have rickets. But there's a pretty big level between you have rickets and you have optimal levels.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
And the same is true for vitamin c and scurvy or beriberi or whatever. The idea that deficiency means you don't have an acute disease that is killing you in in a fast way from it, but that as soon as you're above that, we're fine as opposed to what are optimal levels. Would you speak to that a little bit in terms of also what you find in your practice and what you find when you take someone above rickets. Treat them and treat them and they get better.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I think this is just a really important idea that medicine is trying to catch up with. You know, we we used to talk about having type two diabetes and then we said, wait wait, there's pre diabetes. And then we talked about having hypertension or high blood pressure. Now, there's pre hypertension. And we say, oh, you have an autoimmune disease.

Oh, now there's pre autoimmune disease. And the reason it's pre anything is because we're understanding there's consequences even at levels we thought were quote normal. And so this idea of disease being an on or off phenomena is wrong. It's a continuum from mild in biochemical imbalances, which are barely detectable, which we might be able to now screen for with metabolomic testing and proteomic testing and, you know, more subtle things that we can measure to sort of pre symptomatic to symptomatic disease symptoms to finally full blown disease and death. And so there's a whole long continuum that can start in utero or even, you know, with your mother's health before she was born that impacts your health through epigenetics and through the, you know, intruder experience and through early childhood influences.

And all those things you you can start to map out if you listen carefully to somebody's story about what's happening early and and pick these things up. And so, you know, the fact that we have these sort of arbitrary cutoffs for, you know, blood sugar, blood pressure, vitamin d, you know, folic acid. I mean, function health which is a company to talk to about that allows people access to comprehensive lab testing and have their own personal health data set. You know, the the reference ranges there are ridiculous for some of the things that they have like homocysteine, which is a measure of your b vitamin status, very important in methylation and genetic control, neurotransmitter function, detoxification, mood. Mean, a lot of things.

Their cutoff level is like I think 15 or 16 or something. Yeah. And any level over 14 according to the literature increase your risk of dementia by fifty percent. The optimal level should be six to eight. Same thing with insulin.

I think we we we see insulin levels being reported as normal anything up to 16 or 18. That's because we're we have a sick population. And the the way we determine what's quote normal is basically on a bell curve in a population. So if the bell curve is shifted to the right or the left because people are sick, you're you're picking up what's normal in the population, not what's optimal. Because you know the name of the disease, it doesn't mean you know what's wrong with that person.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
In the name of the disease, that person might be missing some of the symptoms that usually go. They might be missing some of the biomarkers. They might have other biomarkers. They might have other symptoms. We just said there's enough of a cluster to meet the diagnostic threshold for insurance to cover it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But this person, this unique person who we say has rheumatoid arthritis, and this other person we say has rheumatoid arthritis, don't have the same presentation. Right. They don't have the same medical history, but they don't have the same presentation. Right? Run enough labs, they have totally different stuff going on in their blood.

They have a toe and they have different symptomology.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So what does rheumatoid arthritis mean?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It just it just it's the name we give to a group of people who share certain criteria that have been established that create the diagnosis based on symptoms, morning stiffness, certain joint pattern of of inflammation, certain lab tests. But it doesn't tell you anything about why. It could be a into mebo histolytic, a parasite that causes it or could be gluten that causes it or

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But it's almost never one of those. Right?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right. No. It's usually not. Right? It's usually not.

You know, I we were just chatting earlier before the podcast and I remembered this book I read when I was in college by Ivan Illich called Medical Nemesis. And it really influenced me because it talked about the failure of our health care system back then and talked about this idea of iatros, which means physician and genesis means his origin. So the origin of disease being caused by the physician. That's something that I think is sort of underappreciated by most people. Doctors don't intentionally cause people to be ill.

They're not bad people. They're well intentioned. They're trying the right thing, but they're trained in the wrong paradigm.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
This is not actually a critique of doctors. It's not even a critique of hospitals. It's a critique of some systemic mistakes Yeah. That affect what the doctors are even allowed to do. Sometimes the doctors are really upset about it.

Yeah. And it affects how the doctors are trained. And so where the critiques we're giving are systemic.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And Even pretty late stage things like heart failure and Alzheimer's and autism and

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Will you tell

Dr. Mark Hyman
a couple two diabetes.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Just so we can wrap it together. I know you have another place to tell like a couple stories about that, of things that people used to think were totally unreversible and most people still do.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, in medical school and in trauma medical training and even in continuing medical education and postgraduate training, we had go semi courses. The orthodoxy is pretty rigid about certain beliefs. If you have heart failure, it doesn't go backwards. You can't improve it. If you have dementia, you can't reverse it.

If you have type two diabetes, it's not reversible. You can manage chronic diseases which is great for the medical industrial complex because it provides the ability to have a pharmaceutical driven healthcare system that makes huge amounts of profit off of long term chronic use of medication. What I've seen is surprisingly when you apply these principles of creating health, which is what functional medicine is, it's not about treating disease. It's trying to understand what is health, what are the deviations from health, and how do we measure those dysfunctions and the lack of resilience and balance and function in the body and kind of tweak things to correct it, you can actually see reversal of these diseases. Complete remission reversal of type two diabetes.

That's that's easy. That's an easy one. And there's now that's sort of

Daniel Schmachtenberger
But that's a humongous deal because like what is the curve of type two diabetes from when you were born to now? How many upstream diseases does that contribute to? And how many people how many doctors treat it like it's reversible?

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's the thing that's causing everything. So the phenomenon of insulin resistance, underlies type two diabetes, is causing dementia. For example, your risk of dementia is four times higher if you have a type two diabetes. Your risk of heart attacks is dramatically higher. Risk of cancers, many of the most common cancers, breast, pancreatic, ovarian cancer, colon cancer, pancreatic cancer.

These are diseases of insulin resistance.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
And to say all those diseases are largely, not perfectly, but largely preventable with some pretty basic stuff. Yeah. And oftentimes even reversible is a really important thing everybody should know and start to Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mean they're even taking you know some I mean I've talked to Siddhartha Mukherjee about this or doing you know studies of stage four pancreatic cancer using ketogenic diets and seeing remissions in some of these patients which is you know almost like heresy in medicine. For medicine there are no laws. You say, well, evolution, that's a kind of a law. Okay. Well, that's one.

But how does that apply to human health? What are the laws of biology when it comes to human health? Medicine really hasn't described those. Pierre Laplace, who was a incredible scientist back in the, I don't know, seventeenth century. So he's a he had, you know, Laplace's law and all that was a law of physics.

But he he talked about how you can have a great number of observed phenomena from a small number of general laws. And medicine has failed to produce those laws. So instead of having, like, a few principles that explain everything, we we we get more and more granular about the diseases we describe. For example, the diagnostic manual for diseases is called the ICD 10, the international classification disease volume 10 or version 10. And there's a 155,000 diseases.

You know, it's gone up from 12,000. You used have things there like visitation from God. We had got rid of those. You know, it's it's basically descriptive. It's phenomenological.

It's based on symptoms, not on our understanding of the disease or the pathogenesis of the disease. And and so functional medicine, I think, is the first attempt to create a set of principles of laws. And and the the equals m c squared that explains the what you're asking, which is what is anthropogenic disease. Are you suffering from exposure too much of something that your body doesn't like, that doesn't agree with you? Or are you lacking certain things that your body needs to thrive and be resilient?

And so for me, being a functional medicine doctor is just a detective work for figuring out what's you have too much of or too little of. And it's not just one thing. It's often many things. So you can't just treat one thing, which is what we learned in medical school, just Occam's razor. Just single disease, single drug, that's the best practice of medicine.

That's your gold standard. That's what you should shoot for. And that's just unfortunately not how the body works. It's a complex dynamic system and it's it's infinitely unknowable. But you can you can actually determine from these basic laws and principles how to treat disease even if you've never seen it before.

In the fabric of reality by David Deutsch, he talks about this idea that you you know, following these basic principles, you can treat diseases and be successful even if you've never seen them. So often people say, have you treated this? Have you treated that? Have you fixed this or that? I'm like, maybe not.

I've seen that. I never seen it, but I know what to do. I know how to get to the bottom of this problem. And so my job is to go through that list and it's a really short list and maybe you can add to it. But, you know, it's toxins and these can be environmental toxins, all the petrochemical based toxins like the forever chemicals or pesticides, phthalates, PCBs, dioxin, flame retardants, the list goes on.

It could be elemental toxins like heavy metals, mercury, lead arsenic, cadmium, and they're they're buried in the earth, and we've kind of excavated them and industrialized different processes that that, you know, liberate these things like coal burning. Was a great one. They can be biological toxins. Right? If you your liver kidneys aren't working, you're gonna be pretty sick and die pretty quick.

I mean and and then there's there's allergens, which are can be both, environmental allergens, food allergens. Toxins can also be things like mycotoxins and mold toxins which I put in that category, although it can also be an allergen. So so many things crossover. It can be in that allergen category can be sensitivities or imbalance like, you know, things that you might not think of as a true allergy like, we'll call an IG algae, which would be a food sensitivity, which is like gluten, for example. And then there's microbes.

So it could be infections that are persistent like COVID or Epstein Barr or CMB, which kind of burden your immune system and lead to all kinds of symptoms or it could be a more subclinical but but debilitating conditions like tick infections or it could be an acute infection. Like, know, I had an abscess recently in my back that was an acute infection that almost killed me. So it can be micro it can be micro microbiome. So imbalances or dysfunction in your microbiome, which is we're all suffering from in modern society as a core driver of disease. And it can be stress as a physical stress or psychological stress.

And and that creates physiological change in your body, or it can be a poor diet.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
This nutrient deficiency that is part of the detox processes compounds on that. So the key is you get a compounding effect of a lot of things that are some of them happened a year ago. The thing that might have caused it, seemed to have caused it, actually just a trigger. It was the last step of a causal cascade that took somebody

Dr. Mark Hyman
the chemist back. Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yeah. So I think these concepts of delayed causation as opposed to immediate causation, multifactorial as opposed to single factor, subacute issues, things that cause no symptomology immediately, but are part of a compounding effect. Also, unique patho ideology. Right? That two people's MS or two people's rheumatoid arthritis are not the same disease.

Same. Yeah. And as a But I would say

Dr. Mark Hyman
you can have one cause that creates many diseases like mercury or gluten, and you can create one disease that has many causes.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yes. I think just maybe speak to that a tiny bit more in terms of when people think cause and effect, there is a reductionist thing where they think billiard ball, one thing caused one effect immediately. And yet when you're talking about a complex organizational system where, you know, a a circuit board or a computer or a car, you can take a part out, put another part back in, upgrade it, it didn't grow. It's not self organizing. It was built.

And we apply that methodology from clocks to computers to something that grew and self organized where each there's no such thing as a lung outside of a body or a liver outside of a body. Right? So when you try to separate gastroenterology and oncology and neurology, you get still a bunch of diseases that make no sense.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It is. It's such a failure of imagination and thinking that we have these specialties in medicine and we divided up the body into these organs and parts, which is still how we teach medical students. And my daughter just finished medical school and it's just so antiquated. And, you know, there's emerging from the scientific community, not not necessarily the medical community, but I'll say the scientific community.

This emerging paradigm of multi causality and multi modal treatments. In other words, there's multifactorial causes, many causes for any condition. And there's multi modal treatments that are needed, not just one thing. And and this this the the body is seen to be a network and a web where everything is inextricably tied to everything else and you can't separate all these things out. But you can start to understand how they influence each other and are dynamically acting together to create dysfunction in the body and disease.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
You know, you were mentioning what does it mean in another podcast to eat, not ultra hybridized. What what's the term? Ultra processed

Dr. Mark Hyman
food. Ultra processed food. Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
One of the people who I got to study with when I was young that influenced me the most was doctor Evertz Loomis, healing for everyone. Don't know if you ever came across. Was one of the other early naturopaths. Mhmm. Doctor Christopher and those guys.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
My family had actually had some quote unquote incurable illnesses that got help through alternative processes that kinda got us in that path. And we actually gotta go live with that guy, doctor Loomis, on his healing clinic when I was a kid. Wow. And I got to see people coming in in wheelchairs and leaving not in wheelchairs. Just having really radical kind of change.

It was very old school. It was kinda Ann Wigmore like stuff. And but it was real interesting to hear. He was also a medical doctor, but, like, he was 85 by the time I met him, and he had boiled it down to a very simple thing. And he's like, number one principle of nutrition is eat as close to that living ecosystem as you can.

Number two is pay subtle attention how the foods feel in your body. Everything else, whatever. And like nightshades and ratios of macronutrients and

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. I agree.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So he had these gardens, these kind of huge gardens and orchards, and he told people, go pick the food you feel called to and eat it right there. Don't even like, just stand outside with your feet in the dirt and eat it. And that and that's it. That's your diet while you're here. It's an inpatient thing.

And it was amazing how much people got better if the only food they could eat was standing by the tree or the plant that they picked it off of while they ate it. And of course, he emphasized heirloom species and good soil and no pesticides or herbicides.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, know, there's there's a guy who kinda looks like you a little bit with the beard. His name's Fred Provenza. He's someone someone I got to know recently who's a professor for years at Utah State University and studied rangeland ecology and the relationship between plants and the soil and animals and humans. And basically, he wrote a book called nourishment, what animals can teach us about rediscovering our nutritional wisdom. And he basically said that that animals intuitively know what to eat when to keep themselves healthy.

So they forage on some major food crops, but then they'll forage if they're left their own devices and there's enough variety of wild plants around on different plants that have different medicinal properties or different nutrients. And in the book, he talked about this study that was done, think, the twenties in an orphanage in Canada, where they took kids who really hadn't been exposed to a lot of whatever junk food or American diet. And they they gave them, like, weird stuff like brain and organs and all kinds of weird food that we wouldn't think would be things we wanna eat and the kids would wanna eat. And these kids actually were eating completely in harmony with what their bodies needed and seeking out those foods and nutrients in the food that they needed and we're far healthier than kids were control group that were fed a regular diet. Yeah.

And I was like, that's fascinating that humans have lost their ability to understand their sort of nutritional wisdom and and to understand how things affect us.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
I mean, wanna add one thing and then we'll do good notes to leave on. You know what a racket is? Right? Like a protection

Dr. Mark Hyman
racket. Yeah. Racketeers.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Let's say I've got a protection racket where I'm the mob and you're doing business in my turf. So I have some guys go rough you up and then you're scared of those guys and there's not enough law enforcement here. Then I have some other guys say, hey. We can protect you, but you're gonna have to pay us a certain amount every week. Right?

But they're from the same group. Yeah. That's that's a racket. Yeah. Right?

Which is you're manufacturing the demand and then offering the supply. If you make a food system that creates addiction so the people need to keep getting more of it, but then it also makes them need medicine that they wouldn't need otherwise that is profitable, where the side effects of the medicine make them need other medicines, that's a systemic racket.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It is a racket. It's for sure. It's like it's like Bayer. They they they bought Monsanto, which makes glyphosate, which causes lymphoma, and then they make the drugs to treat the lymphoma. That's a racket.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So that's a direct racket if it's the same company. If they're separate companies that are just all owned by the major private equity or whatever, it's a it's a systemic racket. Think about just from a logical perspective, I'm trying to solve a problem. First thing I wanna ask is, did we always have that problem? No.

No. No. It's a new problem. Oh, when we didn't have it, what was happening then? Let's reverse something.

The first thing should be, if it's a new problem Mhmm. That was caused by something, reverse the cause. How often in medicine do we do that? Anything that looks like a racket should be investigated. Anything that looks like, oh, there's a problem, let's not look at what the root causes were.

Let's not look at when we didn't have it. Let's just let's say that we got this problem forever now and we can't possibly not have it when we didn't have it for most of human history. Then let's come up with a new thing that we can make money on that will then itself cause new problems that we will also cause a new solution for that will cause new problems. That is a systemic, exponentially escalating bracket. Yeah.

This is not a good method of problem solving. This is solving problems in a way that doesn't solve the cause, that symptomatically addresses it, and makes worse problems in the process. Let's start actually trying to solve problems. What is the cause? How do we undo the cause?

Dr. Mark Hyman
And how do we get people incentivized to do that? Because right now, everything's

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Everyone flipped. Is actually incentivized if they pay attention to we're talking about your own health.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. That's abstract. I mean, like, the guy who's running Coca Cola or Bayer is not necessarily thinking about these things.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
I remember talking to someone who's the CEO of Pepsi once, and they said they were thinking about categorizing it as an entertainment company because they're like, we know this is not food. This is something people do for fun. And it was like, Jesus. What good does this thing do? Well, it causes diabetes and increases likelihood for Alzheimer's and everybody.

But what real good does it do? Well, it cause addiction. The world would be better if that company didn't exist. Any company where the world would be better if it didn't exist, we should figure out how to have it not exist.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
The number of companies that fit that category are high.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. That's a problem.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Now, derealization. Derealization is this very serious thing that happens when you someone goes through a severe trauma where, like, nothing feels real. I would say almost everybody I know is in some degree

Dr. Mark Hyman
of Feels like that.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Derealization because and here's how I can tell. If I tell somebody something about, it doesn't matter what it is. Whether it's about health care or whether it's about the increasing likelihood towards World War three or AI or whatever. It doesn't matter what it is, the environment. Their tomorrow will be identical.

They cannot be moved by real information about the real world they're in. They are derealized. The real world does not matter to them. And they're like, no new information could change my life. Yeah.

Well, you're being a doomer. Wait. No. The Mongols are coming. If the Mongols are coming, do you want to know?

Oh, I can't do anything. Did you try?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Most people don't. They're just so

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So I wanna just say, let's break the fuck out of ubiquitous derealization and learned helplessness. And say problems that didn't used to exist that we caused, we can't solve. Your own health and your parents and your children are an incentive. But you just have to act like reality is real, and reality matters, and your life matters, As opposed to the nihilism of like, can't do anything. I've already given up on my life mattering.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's hard. And the and the problem is that so many of people are not just do realize because of the trauma, psychological trauma of our society, but also the the the way in which our diet and lifestyle environment affects our cognitive function and brain and mood. So it's sort of a double problem because you're sort of stuck.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
If you look at the American Revolution and the condition of the people who were involved in the American Revolution, one, they were doing labor jobs. Using a pitchfork all day translates to a much heartier body that can do rebellion and whatever. But also, they weren't obese, they weren't on opiates and benzos, and they didn't doomscroll. I have found that I don't care how outraged someone is or how horrified or how depressed, that emotion will not make it through fifteen minutes of doomscrolling. They will actually forget they ever heard the thing.

They'll forget all the emotion. Because in that fifteen minutes, I see something that makes me excited, and something that makes me feel left out, and something that makes me feel belonging, and something that makes me horny, and something that makes me scared, and something that makes me outraged, and then something that's kinda funny. And I just flushed my entire system of continuity. Now, I can go back to my life exactly the way it was. A small number of people ensure that they don't do that, so they can actually work on controlling things at scale.

Yeah. And everybody else lets them.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, how do we have more agency? That's it. That's what you're talking about is is creating a society where their people feel agency and that their actions, that their thoughts, that their voice matters.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
So find all the things that damage your agency and get them out of your life. Take the social media apps off your phone. Even if you're gonna still have it, have to do it on the computer. Don't have a don't have it in your goddamn pocket all the time. Just take them off your phone.

If you're on psych meds, go to a Cleveland Clinic. Go to an integrative doc who can see if maybe there's a better solution for you.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
I'm not telling people get off their psych meds. I'm saying go talk to

Dr. Mark Hyman
a doctor, but talk to someone to do it. Talk to

Daniel Schmachtenberger
someone who knows other possibilities because you're not going to be self regulating or think well or whatever while you're intentionally altering your neurochemistry. Now I will say I know people high up in most of major news companies. They are not news. Not on the right, not on the left.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's not news. No. It's not news. Propaganda.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Yes. Yeah. It is information war. I can criticize the most erudite journals because, well, they'll lie with facts, but they cherry pick their facts. They lay off frame them in a particular way.

So you either call it an illegal alien or an undocumented migrant. It means the exact same thing, but you have a totally different emotional valence. You cherry pick your facts, and you say this thing is getting better when it's getting worse, but you're treating the symptoms or whatever it is. Who puts narratives out there? Again, it takes a lot of money to fund research.

It takes a lot of money to put a narrative out there. Typically, capital streams associated with goals that support those capital streams or the political institutions and and agendas that support capital streams put out narratives that support what they do. So you should understand whenever you're watching a piece of news or reading something, what you should be thinking about is this tells me what some people want other people to believe.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Not what's actually true. Someone gave me a link to a website, I forget what it's called, which basically had the same news item, but reported from the right Yeah. And the left, and then the middle. And it was totally different stories.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
To just realize, you cannot let someone speed spoon feed you your narrative on what is true. Cannot. No one has the right incentive here. So you have to work at it a little bit. But you can't have a meaningful life devoid from what it understanding what's real.

Cause you to make meaningful choices, they have to be in relationship to reality.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And I think what you said was really important is take away the things from your life that interrupt your ability to have agency. And then and whether it's the food you're eating, the news you're watching, the social media scrolling, the friends you're hanging out with, the things you care about. Like, you know, we need this to sort of have more agency.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
As you see in your clinic every day, it's all changeable. Yeah. And it's changeable acutely for each person with behaviors they can take. And it's changeable at scale for everybody with behaviors we can take to do systemic changes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Thank you. That is that's a good point to end on. We just can do it for ourselves, and we have to do it systemically. And I think I'm working on both ends of the problem, so are you. So thank you

Daniel Schmachtenberger
You are.

Dr. Mark Hyman
For everything you're doing.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
I really hope that function can bring a lot of these concepts and tools to everybody because they have been very niche and they shouldn't be. And I love that you're making it not only medicine for the rich, but like medicine that everybody can afford. It's super important. Yeah. And then I hope the policy work can really gain some success and gain success that can keep working across administrations because science has nothing to do with political parity.

And

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's the plan. That's the plan. That's the plan. And for those who wanna learn more about Daniel's work, look at the Consilience Project. It's consilienceproject.org.

We'll put links in the show notes. We'll put links to a lot of references we talked about today. This has been an incredible conversation and I I feel like we could talk for another ten hours and still keep going. So thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Daniel Schmachtenberger
Likewise. Thank you, my friend.

Dr. Mark Hyman
If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. Don't forget, there's a way to listen completely ad free. With Hyman Plus on Apple Podcasts, you can enjoy every episode without any breaks. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap Try Free to start your seven day free trial. You can find me on all social media channels at Doctor.

Mark Hyman. Please reach out, I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Doctor Hyman show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at Doctor Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more. Thank you so much again for tuning in.

We'll see you next time on the Doctor Hyman show. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center, my work at Cleveland Clinic, and Function Health where I am chief medical officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional.

This podcast is provided with the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for help in your journey, please seek out a qualified medical practitioner. And if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, visit my clinic, the Ultra Wellness Center at ultrawellnesscenter.com, and request to become a patient. It's important to have someone in your corner who is a trained, licensed health care practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. This podcast is free as part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the public, so I'd like to express gratitude to sponsors that made today's podcast possible.

Thanks so much again for listening.