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Episode 92
The Doctor's Farmacy

How Can You Wake Up To Your Highest Intelligence?

Open the Podcasts app and search for The Doctor’s Farmacy. If you’re viewing this site on your phone, you can just tap on the

Tap the subscribe button and new shows will be added to your library.

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You are the creator of your mind, body, and universe. Our experience of the world, our identity, and our physical reality are based on our learned perceptions. But when we get aware of our own awareness and ask ourselves some important questions, we can break down false beliefs of our own experience in this life to end suffering and find infinite joy and possibility. If this sounds pretty deep, it is. But as my guest on this week’s episode of The Doctor’s Farmacy explains it can actually be quite simple. 

This episode is brought to you by Nutpods. Nutpods is a really tasty dairy-free, unsweetened, plant-based creamer. They have an original blend to replace your classic creamer, or other great flavors like hazelnut, french vanilla, and caramel. Head over to for a chance to win a free Variety 4 pack from Nutpods, and be sure to keep an eye on your email after entering, as Nutpods is offering a special discount only for my listeners. 

I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Wishing you health and happiness,
Mark Hyman, MD
Mark Hyman, MD

In this episode, you will learn:

  1. What is the universe made of and how do we know?
    (3:48 / 6:51)
  2. The basis of conscious experience, how we know that anything exists, and the effects of this on our identity
    (9:54 / 12:57)
  3. How our learned perceptions create our reality
    (14:38 / 17:41)
  4. The five reasons humans suffer according to the great wisdom traditions of the world
    (17:41 / 20:44)
  5. The four things that create all experiences
    (21:29 / 24:32)
  6. The questions you can ask yourself to break out of your conditioned mind and contribute to a collective awakening
    (24:52 / 27:55)
  7., a digital version of himself that Deepak created to interact with other luminaries and provide the latest understanding of consciousness, science, evolution, and biology
    (27:17 / 30:20)
  8. The phenomenon of synchronicity
    (30:22 / 33:25)
  9. Applying consciousness to the understanding that we are never actually alone
    (40:32 / 43:35)
  10. The question to ask yourself next time you’re stressed
    (54:19 / 57:22)


Mark Hyman, MD

Mark Hyman, MD is the Founder and Director of The UltraWellness Center, the Head of Strategy and Innovation of Cleveland Clinic's Center for Functional Medicine, and a 13-time New York Times Bestselling author.

If you are looking for personalized medical support, we highly recommend contacting Dr. Hyman’s UltraWellness Center in Lenox, Massachusetts today.

Dr. Deepak Chopra

Dr. Deepak Chopra is the founder of The Chopra Foundation, a non-profit entity for research on wellbeing and humanitarianism, and Chopra Global, a modern-day health company at the intersection of science and spirituality, is a world-renowned pioneer in integrative medicine and personal transformation. Chopra is a Clinical Professor of Family Medicine and Public Health at the University of California, San Diego. He is the author of over 89 books translated into over forty-three languages, including numerous New York Times bestsellers. His 90th book and national bestseller, Metahuman: Unleashing Your Infinite Potential, unlocks the secrets to moving beyond our present limitations to access a field of infinite possibilities. 

Transcript Note: Please forgive any typos or errors in the following transcript. It was generated by a third party and has not been subsequently reviewed by our team.

Deepak Chopra: In fact when your not experiencing synchronicity. You’re not in touch with yourself.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Welcome to the doctor’s pharmacy. I’m Dr. Mark Hyman, and that’s farmacy with an F. F-A-R-M-A-C-Y. A place for conversations that matter and if you care about your happiness, if you care about ending suffering for yourself and the world, you’re going to let this conversation with Deepak Chopra who I’ve known for a long time and has become a good friend.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And the first memory I have of sitting with you, what really connected was we were sitting at TEDMED about 10 years ago and we were with Andy Wilde, Donna Karen, you, me and a few others. And we’re sitting outside and it’s beautiful San Diego weather and this bird flies over and craps on my head, hit me right in the forehead and I’m like, what does that mean? And you were like, it’s a good sign.

Dr. Mark Hyman: I’m like, okay, God, thank God you were there so you help me not feel so bad about getting [inaudible 00:01:01] get on. But it was good. He’s the founder of the Chopra Foundation, which is a nonprofit entity for research on wellbeing and humanitarianism and Chopra Global, a modern-day health company at the intersection of science and spirituality.

Dr. Mark Hyman: He’s a pioneer in integrative medicine and personal transformation. His books were my inspiration way back when in the early 90s when I started reading about his work. Now he’s written 90 books. Oh my God, I feel like a slacker. I’m only at 18 I got a long ways to go. He’s a clinical professor of family medicine and public health at the University of California in San Diego and his books are in 43 languages. Many New York Times bestsellers, I think 22 and maybe 23 now. I don’t know who stops counting and who he doesn’t really care.

Dr. Mark Hyman: That’s what’s amazing about Deepak. He’s probably one of the most well-known figures in the world and he’s humble. He doesn’t quite understand who he is. He just kind of hangs out just as a chill guy, he’s always been incredibly supportive of me and my work and really doesn’t walk around with a big ego, which is unlike a lot of people in this field. So I really appreciate that about you, Deepak.

Dr. Mark Hyman: He’s been described by Time magazine as one of the top 100 heroes and icons of the century, not just the year of the decade. So I would agree with that. You’ve done a lot to bring our awareness about how we can think differently about our place here on the planet, our role as humans. And your new book I really want to get into is this interesting book called Metahuman Unleashing Your Infinite Potential.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And it’s about moving beyond the boundaries and limitations of everyday realities that limit our levels of success and happening happiness. So most of us don’t quite think about what we’re here doing, why we’re here, about our minds, about our thoughts. We sort of just go along merrily in this unconscious state and you’re challenging us to think differently about how to look at life and how to look at being human. So how did you come up with this concept of metahuman and what’s the difference between what we think we are and who we really are?

Deepak Chopra: So if you go on the internet and you Google the following question, what are the 125 open questions in science? The first question that will come up is what is the universe made of? The second question that’ll come up is what’s the biological basis of consciousness? And then there are 123 others.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Wow, the biological basis of consciousness.

Deepak Chopra: Those are the two basic what those are the two open questions at the top of the list. What’s the universe made of, and what’s the biological basis of consciousness? Now, that’s what led me to write the book Metahuman. So let’s address those two questions.

Deepak Chopra: What’s the universe made of? The short answer is it’s made them nothing. The long answer is how do we know? And so here we go.

Dr. Mark Hyman: That’s counterintuitive. It’s made them nothing. It seems like its something, right? We’ve got this table here, right?

Deepak Chopra: If you can see it and touch it, it doesn’t exist. So what is the universe made of? 70% of the universe is mysterious, dark energy, which is a mathematical concept first proposed by Einstein called the cosmological constant and dark energy is supposedly expanding the universe faster than the speed of light.

Deepak Chopra: So what is it? We don’t know what it is, but the universe, this space between galaxies, not the galaxies themselves, but the space between galaxies is expanding and it’s expanding faster than the speed of light. Einstein actually once called it the biggest blunder of his life, making that statement about the cosmological constant. Now there are many problems with that theory, but as it turns out, the observation is correct.

Deepak Chopra: The space between galaxies is expanding faster than the speed of light. And we have no idea why scientists call this dark energy, but it’s not the usual kind of energy that you and I know. E is equal to MC squared, it’s not that it’s something totally different and we have no idea.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And the implications keeps expanding until it’s nothing.

Deepak Chopra: Ultimately no. The implication of that as it expands space expands. So ultimately galaxies will disappear at some point in the future, but let’s not worry about that. The main thing is we don’t know what it is that leaves 30% of the universe remaining. Of that 26% is another mysterious entity called dark matter. Why is it called dark matter? It’s invisible. What is it made of? We don’t know.

Deepak Chopra: One thing we do know is it’s not atomic you and I are made of atoms. This table is made of atoms, the galaxies are made of atoms, but whatever dark matter is, it’s not atomic so you can’t interact with it. It doesn’t absorb light, reflect light, emit light, or do anything with light.

Dr. Mark Hyman: How do we know it exists?

Deepak Chopra: Huh?

Dr. Mark Hyman: How do we know what exists?

Deepak Chopra: It accounts for most of the gravity in the galaxy. So most of the gravity in a galaxy, the scaffolding of the galaxy is this supposed it dark matter, mathematical, constant to fit the equations of modern physics.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.

Deepak Chopra: So now you’re left with 4% of the universe on which 99.999% is invisible interstellar dust. We can’t see it. So the visible universe, which is 2 trillion galaxies, 700 sextrillion stars and you know, you can Google this information, you don’t have to believe me.

Dr. Mark Hyman: I believe you.

Deepak Chopra: Okay, 2 trillion galaxies. We live in the Milky Way Galaxy, which has 100 billion stars. So now imagine 700 sextrillion stars. I don’t know how to write that, but it’s 700-

Dr. Mark Hyman: A lot of zeros.

Deepak Chopra: A lot of zeros. Then uncountable trillions of planets, trillions of planets. In fact, according to the current science, there could be 40 billion habitable planets in just our own Milky Way Galaxy. So how do we know that they put these telescopes up there? James Watson telescope they look for biospheres. A biosphere has to sustain life.

Deepak Chopra: So if a plant is too close to its sun, no life to hot, far away to cold, no life, it has to be within a specific zone. It’s called the Goldilocks zone. And so we happen to be lucky. Planet earth isn’t in the Goldilocks zone, but there could be 40 billion others and therefore there are uncountable trillions of planets. And that’s 0.01% of the universe that’s atomic.

Deepak Chopra: Now of course as we know, atoms are made of particles and particles have this schizophrenic nature wave or a particle. A particle has units of mass and energy. You can see it. A wave has no units of mass and energy. In fact, when a particle is not interacting with other particles or when it’s not being observed or measured, it doesn’t exist.

Deepak Chopra: Where is it? What’s it made of? And the best answer you’ll get is it’s made of possibilities. Then you say, where are these possibilities? You know, because otherwise waves, ocean waves are made of water. Airwaves are made of vibration of air molecules. What are the waves that create the visible universe made of? And the only answer you’ll get is they’re made of possibilities and then you say, where do they exist?

Deepak Chopra: The best answer you’ll get is in something called Hilbert space. So he said, what is Hilbert space? And it Hilbert’s the name of a mathematician and Hilbert space is a zero-dimensional space or an infinite-dimensional space. Take your pick. It’s mathematical. And it describes the wave function, which means all the items in the universe Schrodinger’s wave equations. You still keep persisting. Where is this happening? And the answer you’ll get from physicists today is shut up and calculate.

Deepak Chopra: The bottom line is we have no idea what the universe has made of the visible and the invisible of course we can’t comment on because we got to interact with it. So that’s the first open question. The second go open question, which pertains to this is-

Dr. Mark Hyman: I knew you were getting to that.

Deepak Chopra: Okay, is-

Dr. Mark Hyman: Consciousness and dark matter and empty space.

Deepak Chopra: Yeah, but consciousness is what makes any experience possible, including the knowledge of the universe okay. How do you know that anything exists? How do you know you exist? How do you know this microphone exist? How do you know the galaxies exists? Because you’re a conscious being and put them all, you’re a human going to as being a mosquito doesn’t have these issues okay. An insect with a hundred eyes doesn’t have these issues.

Deepak Chopra: Even the great apes don’t have these issues. Only human beings ask these questions. So what’s the basis of consciousness? And as you and I know, having trained in biology and medicine, the brain can’t explain consciousness. It can only explain neural correlates of consciousness, so the brain does explain the conscious experience, but not what consciousness or awareness is.

Deepak Chopra: And so we have a problem. We don’t know what the universe is made of. Secondly, we don’t know how we know that anything exists, including the universe, including you and I. Or New York city or your physical body or a microphone.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So how do those theories or thoughts affect our way of being or what are the implications for how to be human?

Deepak Chopra: Huge. If it affects our identity? If you really understood your identity and you understood today’s identities based on physicality, right? The world is physical, made of matter. What I’m saying in Metahuman is matter is a superstition. There’s no such thing. You know, matter is a human interpretation of human perceptual activity.

Deepak Chopra: This is the hard problem of consciousness in science. The heart problem of consciousness only exists if you assume that the universe and you are physical, but what we call physical reality, including our body is actually a perceptual activity, right? If I substituted-

Dr. Mark Hyman: So sort of like when Einstein said reality is illusion however, persistent. Right?

Deepak Chopra: Correct. Well, I don’t think he knew what he was saying because Einstein was a naive realist. A naive realist means somebody who believes that the physical universe is exactly the way it looks as perceived by the five human senses. Obviously, that’s wrong, right? Because every species has its own experience.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Right, sonar or heat sensing, right.

Deepak Chopra: Or senses, so number one the principle of naive realism is gone. Right? The universe doesn’t exist as perceived as we see it. There are multiple ways of seeing it. Depending on the Nova system you’re using.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, which is fascinating.

Deepak Chopra: It’s species-specific. Okay. Yeah. The second principle of naive realism and I’m restating Einstein was a naive realist he said he was wrong about reality. The second principle-

Dr. Mark Hyman: He got a few things right.

Deepak Chopra: He got a few things right. A few models right, not reality, models of reality. Okay, so the second principle of naive realism is that the universe as we see it would exist if we were not there. An unobserved universe would still exist in the same way as you perceive it.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So the whole thing of a Zen cone is does a tree falling in the forest make a noise if there’s no one there.

Deepak Chopra: Correct, so both principals out, so what I’m saying in Metahuman is there is no such thing as physical reality. It’s an interpretation of the five human senses.

Dr. Mark Hyman: If somebody hits you in the head with a baseball bat, that’s real, right?

Deepak Chopra: No. The baseball bat is a perceptual experience. The head is a perceptual experience and the pain is a perceptual experience.

Dr. Mark Hyman: True.

Deepak Chopra: Okay. Where is it happening? I don’t know. In your head. No. The head is a perceptual experience. How do you know that there’s a head?

Dr. Mark Hyman: Oh, I see I’m not getting far with this one.

Deepak Chopra: Okay, so it’s happening in consciousness. Everything is happening in consciousness. Just substitute the word object with the word experience. So instead of calling this a glass, which a baby wouldn’t know this is a glass. Okay. A baby would see this as a shape or color. Without interpretation, just an experience.

Deepak Chopra: Then substitute the word experience for perception. Then substitute the word perception for perceptual activity and then say where is this activity happening? In consciousness. So consciousness is modifying itself into perceptual activity and then human consciousness is interpreting that as a physical world.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And what you’re seeing in your book is fascinating because you’re saying the perception of matter and the universe that we have is wrong.

Deepak Chopra: We are living in a virtual reality.

Dr. Mark Hyman: It’s an illusion.

Deepak Chopra: Yes. And it’s a learned phenomenon. So if you take, I’ll give you a simple example. If you take kittens and you put them in a room which has only horizontal stripes when they grew up, they’ll only see a horizontal world. If you dig another group of kittens, you bring them in a room that has only vertical stripes, they’ll only see a vertical world so they wouldn’t be able to see furniture legs or anything like.

Deepak Chopra: So clearly our perceptions are conditioned by our five senses and by our beliefs and our thinking and our thoughts about things.

Dr. Mark Hyman: They’re learned.

Deepak Chopra: They’re learned, right. Well, so then that brings up, you know, why we have suffering and why we are not happy and full of joy like a three-year-old.

Dr. Mark Hyman: I’m full of joy.

Deepak Chopra: You are, I know you are because I hang out with you, but most people are stuck in the illusion that their thoughts are real, that their ego world is all there is.

Dr. Mark Hyman: They made them all up.

Deepak Chopra: They made them all up. And it’s not even their fault, it’s been recycled this idea for thousands of years and it gets stronger. It started with Plato and Aristotle. As you know, Plato was an idealist. He thought the world was made of ideas. Aristotle his student was a physicalist who was the first scientist, I would say in the world. But that argument has persisted throughout the ages as the so-called mind, brain, mind, body problem.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And the thing is we put our meaning on everything so we put our meeting on everything. We’re seeing meaning on emotions, meaning on experiences, meaning on the people we meet.

Deepak Chopra: In other words, you are the creator of your mind, your body, and the universe.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Which is both terrifying and actually powerful.

Deepak Chopra: Your God in drag.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Right.

Deepak Chopra: Your God pretending to be a human being.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. I’ve often heard you say, we’re spiritual beings having a human experience.

Deepak Chopra: Well, that’s Teilhard de Chardin, but yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Oh close enough. You quote him, I quote you, it all goes around. So I think that the message that I’m really hearing from you is that if we get our perceptions right-

Deepak Chopra: There is no such thing as right or wrong perception.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Well, if our view of like-

Deepak Chopra: If you understand that consciousness is not physical, has no form, because you can’t see it, right? You can see everything but without consciousness, there is no scene without going to business. There’s no hearing without consciousness. There’s no experience of anything mental, physical, emotional, and whatever. Okay? If you understand that consciousness doesn’t have any dimensionality, it can’t be seen, doesn’t have form then it must be infinite.

Deepak Chopra: And therefore you’re an infinite being. And this solves every problem that humans have had, including the problem of what we call physical death. You are talking about the death of something that doesn’t exist. Okay. Death is another human construct. So you know, if you go to the great wisdom traditions of the world, they said there are five reasons humans suffer. One is they don’t know who they are.

Deepak Chopra: They confuse themselves with the changing experience that they call the body. You know, if you see I’m a body, then which body are you? Fertilize, eggs, zygote, embryo, baby, toddler, a young adult, teenager, this one and the one that’ll disappear. So you know which body are you there? You can’t hang on to it, okay? It’s a verb. Like it’s not a noun. The bodies a verb. Okay? So you can hang on to a verb. Number one. So the first cause of human suffering is you are identifying yourself as a physical body.

Deepak Chopra: The second is you’re holding onto experience, which is evanescent and transient and ephemeral and uncatchable. If I asked you what happened to your childhood, you’d said, it’s gone. What happened to you yesterday? It’s gone. What happened five minutes ago? It’s gone. What happens to these words? By the time you hear them, they don’t exist.

Deepak Chopra: So all experience is actually a perceptual snapshot. We string these perceptional snapshots together on the thread of consciousness. And we project a movie and we call that the universe and the physical world. But we have created that movie and the physical world, so experience by itself is ungraspable. You know, Wittgenstein the great German philosopher, he said, “We are asleep. Our life is a dream but once in a while we wake up enough to know that we are dreaming.”

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yes, lucid dreaming.

Deepak Chopra: Lucid dreaming in the vivid now. Buddha said the same thing. Our lifetime is transient as autumn clouds to watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance. A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky, rushing by like a torrent down the steep mountain. So that’s the second reason. Grasping, clinging at that which is ungraspable.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So it’s the Buddhist notion of impermanence.

Deepak Chopra: Impermanence. The third is exactly that from that notion of impermanence that we get afraid of impermanence because it’s ungraspable. The fourth is identifying with your ego, which is a socially induced hallucination. And the fifth is the fear of death and they’re all connected.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So wait, the socially…

Deepak Chopra: Induced hallucination.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Induced hallucination of your ego. You’ve got to unpack that.

Deepak Chopra: Ego is a socially induced hallucination. There’s no identity. I mean, Deepak Chopra, my mother could have called me Paul Smith. It’s provisional, it’s nominal. Okay. But on that thread, that name hangs everything I do in my life and that’s I’m a doctor, I’m a writer, I’m a father, I’m a husband, I’m a child, I’m whatever. It’s my destiny to play these roles. But am I the rules I’m playing? I am the alert witness in which I can play infinite roles. Once I know I’ve can play infinite roles I’m free of the rules.

Dr. Mark Hyman: It’s actually true. My experience of you is that you don’t identify with anything, that you seem to be on the outside, right? You don’t identify with Deepak Chopra.

Deepak Chopra: No, no.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Mega super star spiritual leader guy, doctor.

Deepak Chopra: It’s a hallucination. It has no reality. And then the final thing is the fear of death, which comes from these false constructs. So the solution? Be a metahuman.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So the way I understand metahuman is that it’s unpacking those false ideas.

Deepak Chopra: But then repackaging it to the reality that you want to create. Okay. The perceived reality. So here’s the thing. All experience is only four things. All experience including this experience, sensations, which includes sense perceptions because sense perceptions are sensations.

Deepak Chopra: You hear a sound, that’s a sensation in consciousness. You look at an object that’s an image in consciousness. So one sensation, two images. I ask you to close your eyes and imagine a red sunset, or imagine the empire state building or imagine the Milky Way galaxy is.

Deepak Chopra: You certainly see a picture. There is no picture in the brain, okay? Even when you look at the red sunset, there’s nothing that corresponds to the sunset other than what they call a neural correlate. An electrochemical activity which in turn is a human construct. Okay? So all experiences, sensations, images, imagination, feelings, emotions and thoughts. Period.

Deepak Chopra: If you can think of another experience outside of what I call sift S-I-F-T, sensations, images, feelings, and thoughts, then take over. There’s no experience. The rest is a story. We made it up.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So that’s what causes suffering is the stories we tell ourselves about our lives ourselves.

Deepak Chopra: Some stories we like, we feel happy. Some stories we don’t like, we feel unhappy, but we actually are independent of all stories, so people, when they say, do you have hope for the future? My answer is hope is an oxymoron. You only have hope when you have despair so your true self is independent of hope and despair of suffering and pain, of pleasure, of aging, of birth or death. Its infinite form less can morph itself into any form. Now I’m taking a risk here by telling you that you can morph yourself into any form. You’ve been doing it since the beginning of time in a room he says-

Dr. Mark Hyman: More wrinkles.

Deepak Chopra: I was first a mineral, then I was unconscious, then there was a plant. I started to dream. I was an animal. I started to have some awareness and then suddenly as a human I said, who am I? What am I?

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah you know, it’s interesting.

Deepak Chopra: This is the evolution of our consciousness.

Dr. Mark Hyman: It’s true, it’s almost like you said, we’re in a dream. My wife’s really been studying lucid dreaming and I’ve been doing a little lucid dreaming.

Deepak Chopra: We are lucid dreaming right now. This is a lucid dream in a vivid now. How do I know that? It’ll be over as soon as this podcast is over?

Dr. Mark Hyman: But most people aren’t aware that this is an illusion and that we’re in a dream while we’re awake. When you’re dreaming, you get, sometimes you experience that oh, I’m in a dream. And I have infinite power and infinite potential.

Deepak Chopra: I have that feeling right now that I’m in a dream. And the dream is a conglomeration or a confederation of sensations, images, feelings, and thoughts. And furthermore, they’re entangled. You know, these days we hear about quantum entanglement. Forget about that. Talk about experience in tanglement. Thoughts, sensations, images, feelings are all entangled.

Deepak Chopra: So if you think of John Lennon, you suddenly hear, Imagine the song in your head or you might see a picture, you might have an emotion. So thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations are the confederation of experience. And by shifting one, you shift all the others.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So how do people get stuck out of this stuck place? Because what you’re saying makes complete sense. And I think most people listening will get it. The challenge is we’re all so conditioned so that the Buddha talks about our conditioned mind.

Deepak Chopra: You can live your entire life in this waking dream or this sleep or you can begin by asking who am I? Who wants to know? Who wants to know?

Dr. Mark Hyman: Who is the who that’s asking?

Deepak Chopra: Who is the who that’s asking, what do I really want from my life? Do I just want a Mercedes or a big house or do I want to know the source of my existence? If I want to know that, what is that finite or infinite? Just ask these questions. What is my purpose and even more important, what am I grateful for?

Deepak Chopra: If you start asking these four questions, consciousness, because it is infinite, infinite, it has infinite organizing power. You know, what are you doing right now to regulate your blood pressure? Or your heartbeat? Or your immune system?

Dr. Mark Hyman: I’m hanging out with you.

Deepak Chopra: No, you do nothing. What did you do to get to where you are from being a fertilized egg?

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, it pretty much just happened.

Deepak Chopra: Okay. It’s all happening and it’s happening perfectly with self-regulation, self-correlation with self-organization. Evolution-

Dr. Mark Hyman: People are so stuck in their ego and their mind and their narcissistic view of themselves and their world and it seems so tangible and real. How do you break that?

Deepak Chopra: Because of what you’re saying, Mark, we have created a world where there’s climate change extinctions of species, poison, and our food. I know you relate to that.

Dr. Mark Hyman: A little bit, yeah.

Deepak Chopra: Okay. We’ve created mechanized weapons of death, nuclear weapons, biological warfare. Now internet, information warfare, and on and on. We are risking our own extinction. So if you continue to sleep, I guarantee you we’ll go extinct. And the human species will no longer exist as this entity. And nature will have said it was an interesting experiment. It didn’t work.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, so-

Deepak Chopra: The only solution is a collective awakening.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Spurred by what? Created by how? I mean I think about it every day.

Deepak Chopra: Each person going beyond their conditioned mind. Centuries of-

Dr. Mark Hyman: But you need a path to do that right?

Deepak Chopra: Well, in the book I outline 31 exercises but now created a digital version of myself, which is actually learning with other luminaries. I don’t want to call myself a luminary, but it is interacting with other luminaries to get the latest understanding on consciousness, science, evolution, biology.

Deepak Chopra: You can go to and you can get a course on metahuman even if you haven’t read the book and if you have there the book, you can ask it questions. But if it doesn’t know the answer he’ll say, I’ll check with my creator, which is me and if I don’t have the answer it’ll check with all the experts in these domains of fundamental reality, physics, cosmology, science.

Dr. Mark Hyman: You have to be able to break that perception lock. You know we’ve had Michael Pollen and Daniel Goleman on Daniel talks about meditators were Olympic meditators were able to shut down the default mode network where their ego stops for a moment and they can see the interconnection between everything. And Michael Pollan talks about the psychedelics and magic mushrooms or [inaudible 00:28:19] ].

Deepak Chopra: I have a whole chapter on them, mind psychedelics.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Those are like shortcuts or I mean meditation’s not a shortcut. But there are pathways to help people actually have that experience. But, if you say to the average person, your perception is an illusion. You’re an illusion your consciousness is something that is-

Deepak Chopra: See if you made the movie you can make any movie you want, right? But you’re recycling movies are 5,000 years. We’re recycling the movies that were created in the bronze age. So every religion goes back to the bronze age and we’re recycling those scenarios.

Dr. Mark Hyman: It’s really true. I mean, I remember-

Deepak Chopra: We are recycling those concepts.

Dr. Mark Hyman: When I was a kid, I had my 60th birthday last week and I had-

Deepak Chopra: Congratulations.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Thank you.

Deepak Chopra: Another human construct.

Dr. Mark Hyman: True but I have one of my friends from third grade and he wrote me an email, he said, Mark, you know, when you were like 14 years old you were giving me books on Allen Watts and Zen and the arts and stuff. Motorcycle maintenance. And I majored in Buddhism and studied Asian religions and the Vedas and Upanishads. So it was really clear to me that our perceptions were the problem and that we had to figure out a way to undo that. And so we’re not our ego, we’re not our thoughts, we’re not our body, we’re not our mind all that’s true, but it’s taken me a lifetime to actually work through to get to a place where I really feel that’s true.

Deepak Chopra: Here’s a clue. The space between your thoughts, the space between every snapshot of perception, the space between volition, the space between any experience and the space between you and me right now is the same space and it’s infinite and it’s imbued with consciousness and it transcends all of space time. So the first thing you can do is put the pause button, ask that question, who am I? And then instead of listening to me, be aware of that which is listening. And you feel the presence of being which people call spirit or soul or consciousness or Allah or Ein Sof or whatever else you want to call it, Mark Hyman.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And there’s an incredible consequence of doing that, which I’ve experienced in my life. When you get your ego in park and you realize that what you’re saying is true, that there’s this phenomenon of synchronicities and magic that happens in the unfolding of your life that you couldn’t plan, design or create. But that happens as a result of you realizing that you’re not all your ego and thoughts-

Deepak Chopra: In fact when your not experiencing synchronicity. You’re not in touch with yourself.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.

Deepak Chopra: Okay. The synchronicity is what today people call the entanglement or non-local correlation. You know, going back again to Einstein, he objected to it, but he also wrote the equation for it, Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen equation. Then he kind of backtracked. Einstein, in the end, was a little muddled. He couldn’t decide whether he would go with, you know, Niels Bohr and the pioneers of quantum physics, or he’d go with general relativity, which was his own issue.

Deepak Chopra: But there’s a joke about synchronicity or non-local correlation since he in Niels Bohr were fighting about it all the time. They said that when Einstein turns in his grave, Niels Bohr turns the other way simultaneously. But that is a good metaphor for everything in the universe is correlated synchronicity.

Deepak Chopra: How does a human body think thoughts, play a piano, kill germs, remove toxins, make a baby all at the same time? And that can’t be linear, right? It has to be synchronistic. Therefore, it’s non-local. Right there. Okay. A human body can do all of the things and track the movement of stars, your biological rhythms, circadian rhythms, seasonal rhythms, lunar rhythms, gravitational rhythms. They’re all part of the symphony of the universe, which is synchronicity.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. And it’s very true. I’ve experienced that so much in my life when my intentions are clear when I’m sort of working from a place of service, which is not in my ego, magic happens. And you know, someone once said to me, that coincidence is God’s way of staying anonymous.

Deepak Chopra: Yes. Coincidence. Coinciding. Synchronicity, Kronos and synchronized in time. This is the fundamental nature of the universe. If something appears linear, it’s an illusion.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, and we’ve all noticed that in moments in our life. But what you said is really true. If we’re not in a place of clear awareness and that actually doesn’t really happen.

Deepak Chopra: Yeah but now people are getting to it. You know, when they talk about synchronicity, they talk about flow, they talk about transcendence, they talk about extreme joy, spontaneous right actions, spontaneous creativity, disruptive technologies. These don’t come from linear thinking.

Dr. Mark Hyman: No, no and the quantum computing is even a whole nother phenomenon. It’s not a-

Deepak Chopra: It’ll happen very soon, very soon. But you know where it’s happening? Quantum computing in your body right now.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.

Deepak Chopra: There’s no way you can explain what is happening in your body by classical physics.

Dr. Mark Hyman: No, I mean, you know, you probably know this, but every second there are 37 billion chemical reactions happening, which is mind-boggling.

Deepak Chopra: And they’re all correlated with each other. You know, every action in your cardiac cells is correlated with your neurons, with your gastric cells, with your immune system, with your endocrine system, with your blood pressure, with your emotions, with your feelings, with your personal relationships, your personal interactions, and your identity. You know, if you ask me what is your identity? I said the only identity I have is infinite. Everything else is, I’m bamboozled into it.

Dr. Mark Hyman: I remember… That’s true. We had lunch recently and it’s like, what are you planning next for your life Deepak? You said, “Well, I just want to meditate five hours a day.”

Deepak Chopra: I live in that space now. But yeah, there’s nothing to do, it unfolds.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And yet, you’re really acutely aware of all the challenges we’re facing. You know, the climate change, environmental degradation.

Deepak Chopra: There’s a lot of sadness about that, a lot of sadness right now about that. You know, the whole situation in the world where national leaders have become gangsters and thugs and all they’re interested in is in cronyism and corruption and influence peddling and power-mongering and a bipartisan politics. Nobody wants to even know the truth.

Dr. Mark Hyman: It’s like the global consciousness is going down.

Deepak Chopra: I hope I helped with just a reaction to the next quantum leap. And you know, whenever there’s a phase turbulence, like when water turns to steam, there’s a lot of turbulence. So maybe that’s what it is.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So you think we’re just in a steamy period?

Deepak Chopra: Yeah, a steamy period of transition.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Because do you think it’s the lack of consciousness is driving these levels of destruction, anxiety, depression, suicide, illness?

Deepak Chopra: It is. So you know, all of this comes from that hallucination of the isolated separate self. And you know, our media perpetuates it. Instagram, whatever. I use Instagram but I don’t use it other than to give information or you know ask people a question or give them a tool. But you know, otherwise, it’s all-

Dr. Mark Hyman: You don’t do selfies on your vacation?

Deepak Chopra: You know, I don’t know how to take a selfie.

Dr. Mark Hyman: I love your Instagram because it’s so authentic and it’s so great. And I think the idea that we’re our body and our perceptions are real is pretty ingrained. And I remember a couple of years ago I got very sick. I had mold in my house. I had Clindamycin for a bad tooth, I got C diff, I lost 30 pounds from my skinny self. I was in bed for five months. I literally couldn’t answer an email. I couldn’t talk on the phone. I was in pain, nauseous, 24/7, severe colitis, gastritis. I mean, just not functioning.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And I didn’t really have any emotional life. I didn’t have any, couldn’t really have any intellectual life, my body was not working at all. And I realized, you know, I wasn’t my body, I wasn’t my thoughts, I wasn’t my emotions, I wasn’t my mind. And what was left was just this deep spiritual sense of peace. And I remember feeling like, it’s okay. It’s all okay. Like it doesn’t matter.

Deepak Chopra: By the way, as soon as you lose that concern, self-regulation kicks in. The perfect state of homeostasis is when you transcend to pure consciousness. Number one, deep sleep. Number two, and death number three. Those are perfect homeostasis. Death is the opportunity to recreate yourself.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And I did, I feel like I died, but I what I came back with was a sense of wow. I mean all of the stuff I worry about just doesn’t matter.

Deepak Chopra: It doesn’t matter. What is it going to matter when everything that we do is going to be nothing at the moment of death. The only thing that remains is infinite, but with the seeds, with the seeds of experience and memory and desire, this is another big problem of the hard problem of consciousness. Ask a scientist, good neuroscientist. Where in the brain is memory?

Deepak Chopra: So if I ask you right now to think of your childhood, think of your childhood. Think of the house you lived in. You can see it in your imagination? You can see your parents? You can see your classmates?

Dr. Mark Hyman: Completely.

Deepak Chopra: Okay. Where was that before I asked you the question?

Dr. Mark Hyman: It was in the left side of my brain in the back.

Deepak Chopra: No, this is this way we are bamboozled by our education by experts.

Dr. Mark Hyman: I’m kidding, I’m kidding.

Deepak Chopra: You know Rudy Tanzi, the best neuroscientist that I work with, but I know an expert in Alzheimer’s. I asked him, ask all your neuroscientist friends the cellular basis of memory, and he said all of them, 100% of them, they said, we don’t know.

Dr. Mark Hyman: I know we don’t know.

Deepak Chopra: We don’t know. There’s no cellular basis of memory memory’s again in consciousness, like everything else.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, and it’s fascinating. I mean-

Deepak Chopra: Until I asked you the question about your childhood. The answer didn’t exist in the brain.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Well, the lucid dreaming thing is really fascinating because it seems like a shortcut to understanding exactly what you’re saying.

Deepak Chopra: Yeah, yeah. Do you remember Carlos Castaneda had lots of these exercises on lucid dreaming?

Dr. Mark Hyman: And for those of you who don’t know what it is, you’ve all probably experienced it because it’s when you in your dream go, “Oh, I’m dreaming.”

Deepak Chopra: Yes, this is a dream. But it has real consequences. People ejaculate in their dreams, their blood pressure goes up, you know, if their dream is scary, biological reactions happen in the dream stage, right?

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.

Deepak Chopra: So the same thing is happening in this perceptual experience right now.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, and we just need to wake up that we’re actually in this dream.

Deepak Chopra: You’re the dreamer, your not the dream.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And the beautiful thing about a lucid dream is you have infinite possibilities. I was in this really rushing river or going over a waterfall. I’m like, I’m going to die. I’m like, no, I’m dreaming and I just took off and started flying all over.

Deepak Chopra: You could have been a dolphin and under the water playing a piano.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, exactly. Right. And it’s so powerful.

Deepak Chopra: Anything is possible.

Dr. Mark Hyman: But you know, at the same time, in some ways it feels like a nihilistic view where you know, it all is nothing. It’s all perception and it all doesn’t matter. But at the same time, I see you Deepak really committing your life to bringing consciousness to the world.

Dr. Mark Hyman: To doing things like creating never alone, which is a nonprofit that helps address loneliness and anxiety and depression and suicide and creating movies and creating your AI course on how to be a metahuman. I mean you’re not giving up on the human race.

Deepak Chopra: I’m entertaining myself.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So you’re doing it without attachment to whatever happens.

Deepak Chopra: Zero. I hope some people like the movie that’s all.

Dr. Mark Hyman: The Offering?

Deepak Chopra: The offering.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.

Deepak Chopra: Well that the movie associated with Never Alone campaign, but we’ve changed the title to I Am Never Alone. The movie is going to be called that.

Dr. Mark Hyman: That’s better.

Deepak Chopra: Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. I Am Never Alone.

Deepak Chopra: Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman: But I think, you know when you do feel that loss of separation as you, I realize that your small ego is not your big self that’s connected to everything. It’s really freeing. And you do feel never alone and I think getting people there, it just seems like a challenge in our society, especially with digital media and everything that’s happening or people are sort of more distracted, more disconnected, more isolated than ever or more alone than ever.

Deepak Chopra: And sad. It’s very sad because it’s unnecessary. You know, in the wisdom traditions of the world, there are three levels of realities. The first which we call physical reality, but that’s a perceptual activity in consciousness. The second which you call mental reality, thoughts, emotions, imagination, which is also an activity in consciousness. And the third is the level of soul, spirit or pure consciousness, which is the source of these activities, mental and perceptual.

Deepak Chopra: Now when you look at the world objectively, if you want to buy the objective model, same thing, there’s a physical level, there’s a level of energy, there’s a level of information, and then there’s a level of consciousness. Because consciousness is what is modifying itself to information, energy and matter. If you want to believe that model. But I’m saying that model itself is structured in consciousness, human conscious.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So just taking to an extreme, if someone’s in severe poverty in someplace in the world where there’s just a real lack, or even in this country where there’s third world countries in this country, how do you talk to someone like that who’s stuck in the cycle of poverty and lack?

Dr. Mark Hyman: I mean, I just had a woman on the podcast talking about environmental racism where these children are being poisoned by lead, environmental toxins. We’ve lost millions and millions of IQ points and cognitive function. How do you talk to those folks?

Deepak Chopra: There’s a way of responding to that question out of deep empathy and compassion, which is you help them alleviate their suffering from where they are. There’s another level which is, this is a state of ignorance of yourself. Okay. Now I’ll give you an example of something that I experienced approximately 20 years ago. So there’s a friend of mine who’s about 10 years older than me, so I’m now 73, he’s 83. 20 years ago he said, “Do you want to visit my grandfather who is now is become an ascetic and he lives in the Himalayas and he’s taken ,sannyasi?”

Deepak Chopra: He’s detached from the world. They were very rich family. And I said, “I’m very curious. I would like to go and visit him.” So we took this rickety ambassador car to visit the grandfather of, you know, a middle-aged man. He’s 83 now so he was 63 then. Grandfather.

Deepak Chopra: So he was in his 90s. Now because they came from a wealthy family, he had a little cottage by the Ganges, he had a servant who used to cook food for them, but otherwise, he had no contact with the world. Zero. And while we were there, this Swami dropped in, you know, this guy who was ascetic and the only clothing he had was a coconut shell covering his genitalia.

Deepak Chopra: Otherwise, he was naked and he was [inaudible 00:44:06] and he was strong and he had a good body look like an athlete. And as soon as he walked into the room, apparently, these guys had never seen him for a long time. So you know, they touched his feet out of reverence and all because he was their spiritual master.

Deepak Chopra: So I asked my friend, then 63, how old is this guy? He said I don’t know. Ever since I was child he’s been like this. He shows up every few years for a meal. So then I ask the grandfather, how old is this guy? He says, “I don’t know. Ever since I’ve been a child, he’s been like this.” Okay.

Deepak Chopra: So now the meal was served. So he takes out his coconut shell from his genitalia. He washes it with the water. If he was in the forest, he’d probably wash it with rain or the Ganges, which is dirty to begin with, and good for the microbiome. And then he puts the food in this coconut shell and he slurps from it. And when it rains, he puts it on his head.

Deepak Chopra: So his head doesn’t get wet. But that’s his only possession. And he was very curious about me, you know, where do you live? I said, “In America.” He said, “Is that the other side of the world?” I said, “Yes, it is.” He says, “I believe they have all kinds of suffering over there and violence.” I said, “Yeah, that’s true.”

Deepak Chopra: Then he told me about his experience when the India and China went to war in 1959 and he got caught in the war, you know, because he’s a wandering monk goes from place to place and he got garden, the crossfire, so he sought refuge with the Tibetan monks in Tibetan monasteries. And he regaled us with amazing stories of mung and transforming the body Tummo meditations and all of that.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Tummo meditations where you can literally dry your sheets and heat your body up through meditation.

Deepak Chopra: Right. I even talked about the rainbow body if you know about that, you know that these Tibetan rituals, when the enlightened master dies, the body incinerates within 24 hours and all that’s left is nails and hair follicles and a few bones, not even most of the bones that also incinerate. Consciously get rid of the ring and assume the body of a rainbow.

Deepak Chopra: Anyway, that’s all part of the legend and the literature. So ultimately we left fascinated by this guy and we were going down the winding road in the Himalayas in our car at about 10 miles an hour. And suddenly I look behind and this guy is running like an antelope and he’s keeping up with the car and he’s full of joy. He’s waving at us like he’s a kid.

Deepak Chopra: Finally, of course, the car picked up sweet that we lost him, but I have never forgotten that guy. He had nothing except a coconut shell.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Wow, he must have had a string to attached it.

Deepak Chopra: Yeah, he had a string. The string when it was a hat it served as a harness for his hat. But I have never met a more joyful person in my life. And then I look at billionaires and their sufferings.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yes, yes. You and I know a bunch of them.

Deepak Chopra: Oh, we know a lot of them. Some of them running the world.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. Yeah, it’s true. It’s very true. We money and success is all about happiness. It just, it’s not. And I think you know what I’m very curious about for you to learn is what are those 31 steps to becoming a metahuman? Because can’t go through all of them, but what are some of the nuggets?

Deepak Chopra: To begin with, reflection. Then you begin with body awareness. And if you close your eyes, by the way, the only experience of your body is sensations, right? The body’s made of sensations. If you close your eyes, if you open your eyes, then you look at it as an image, but you slowly start to become aware of the fundamental nature of your body.

Deepak Chopra: You can go deeper. Now, these days the neuroscience is talking about introception, which means you can be aware of the internal organs of your body and regulate their activity. So you know in yoga traditions, that’s called Pratyahara. Pratyahara, withdrawal of the senses, and then taking over the autonomic nervous system so you can control your vagal activity or sympathetic activity.

Deepak Chopra: You can speed up your heart rate, lowers your heart rate. I can do that by the way. So I’m very aware of what’s happening inside my body. Then you get into mental space. I’m very aware that thoughts are appearing and emotions are appearing on the screen of consciousness in the same way as sensations and images and everything else I’m experiencing.

Deepak Chopra: So slowly what I start to become is the witnessing awareness in which thought is an appearance, mind is an appearance, emotion is an appearance, images are an appearance and perceptual activity is also the appearance that I call the physical world. I then now know how to shift that by changing any of those four things, sensations, images, feelings, thoughts, and immediately I can walk out of New York City. It’s a magic show.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, it’s true. We live in a magic show. It sort of reminds me of one of the great wisdom teachers of all time, Dr. Seuss.

Deepak Chopra: Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Who said, you know, you’re the watcher watch watching the watcher, watching the watcher and it’s really about that.

Deepak Chopra: It is about that. Watch the watcher.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah and you are the watcher, the consciousness is the watcher and the rest is all story.

Deepak Chopra: Every experience has three components. Observer, process of observation and that which is observed. Now you can rephrase that, say, knower, process of knowing that which is known, but the observer is yourself. The process of observation is the activity we call the mind, and then that which we observe is the activity that we call the body and the physical mind.

Dr. Mark Hyman: But the witness is different than the mind right?

Deepak Chopra: Huh?

Dr. Mark Hyman: The witness is different than the mind.

Deepak Chopra: The witness is the observer of the mind.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. Like who’s the one who’s thinking the thoughts?

Deepak Chopra: Or watching them.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And who’s the one watching you watching and thinking your thoughts. Right?

Deepak Chopra: Yeah, go deep into that and you find yourself as the infinite being.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And that’s really the exciting part of this story is that we all have the possibility to transform our lives. If we shift the way we think about who we are.

Deepak Chopra: I wish we could teach this to our children, they would have joyful lives and creative lives. Right now, every child is educated in the rush to conform. Today we call talk about disruptive technologies, disruptive healthcare, disruptive, everything, disruptive imagination, creativity. That can only come when you refuse to buy into everybody’s constructs. You know, you’re not rushing to conform.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. Yeah, it’s pretty interesting. So part of what you talk about is this concept of choiceless awareness, which then derives from-

Deepak Chopra: Again, that’s not my phrase. That’s Krishnamurti, the great Indian philosopher who said the highest intelligence is the ability to observe yourself without judging yourself. That is choiceless awareness.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Well, Instagram’s not good for that. Everybody’s comparing themselves to everybody else and judging themselves.

Deepak Chopra: The highest intelligence is to observe yourself in that mirror observation is transformation and evolution and self-regulation and self-organization and creativity and vision.

Dr. Mark Hyman: And love and compassion and everything.

Deepak Chopra: Love is the ultimate truth at the heart of the universe. Not just to sentiment but the truth.

Dr. Mark Hyman: So talk more about this choiceless awareness. What does that mean exactly? And how do people get that?

Deepak Chopra: Just being aware of being aware. Are you, aware right now of yourself or only of your experiences? So as you’re listening to me and our audience could do this right now as they’re watching us, as they’re listening to us, they just turn their attention to that which is watching. It’s very simple. Or if you’d find that too difficult because people find non-doing very difficult.

Deepak Chopra: They don’t know how to be except when they’re babies. You see, if you find that difficult, put your attention on the space between your breath. Start with that or feel the sensation in your body and see what’s happening in the space between them.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, I mean, if you practice meditation over time you really get to be in that space of suspended consciousness.

Deepak Chopra: Yeah. My new book is called turtle meditation. It’s how to be there all the time.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Okay. Tell me. Spill the beans. I’ll have you back on the show but I want to know.

Deepak Chopra: It’s knowing that awareness precedes every experience, awareness proceeds, the experience of the five senses. It precedes the experience of the body, precedes the knowing of anything is happening inside your body. Anything that’s happening in mental space, anything that’s happening in the web of relationship. You can train yourself to go there. And you know, the Buddhist call this and your friend Dan Siegel calls this the wheel of awareness.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.

Deepak Chopra: You know, so the hub of the wheel is pure awareness and the rim of the wheel is the four quadrants. Perceptual activity, body, viscera, mental space, and relationship. That’s it. That’s total reality.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. Wow. This is quite a conversation. I think for me, when I think about my own life, the more I step out of my little ego and my wants and needs and preferences, the happier I am. The more I just act in service. In other words, not for my own gain or profit, but just the act of service and helping and giving is when I’m happiest.

Deepak Chopra: That’s the first shift. Instead ask yourself, next time you’re stressed, who am I thinking about?

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.

Deepak Chopra: Right. The easiest way to get out of stress is not to think about yourself. To make somebody else happy and I’d like to summarize these in short formulas or whatever. I call these, the four A’s. Attention, deep listening, affection, deep caring, appreciation, being grateful for all that exists and acceptance. Don’t try to fix things, you know, don’t try to fix people. It’s hard enough to fix yourself.

Dr. Mark Hyman: I have to quit then. I want to heal the world.

Deepak Chopra: No, heal yourself and you’ll heal the world.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. I think that’s exactly the thing. I mean you know, there’s a Jewish concept called Tikkun Olam, which means to repair the world.

Deepak Chopra: Absolutely. It starts its self-repair.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. It does.

Deepak Chopra: And compassion and empathy and love and joy. All of those.

Dr. Mark Hyman: It’s true. I mean, it really all is about letting go of all that mental construct that’s causing us to suffer.

Deepak Chopra: Yes, performance anxiety basically.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah.

Deepak Chopra: People let performance anxiety about everything, whether it’s an erection or making money.

Dr. Mark Hyman: It’s true. I mean, people ask me, are you getting nervous? I’m like, I’m never really nervous. Like I just, you know, if I’m speaking to 10,000 people or two people.

Deepak Chopra: Yeah, if you’re in the mood to give, what’s the anxiety about?

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah and what’s, what’s really freeing is sort of having the moment where I really could see that my little ego isn’t real and that insight I got in college around the Buddhist sort of framework, which is sort of what you’re talking about which is that everything is about the meaning we attach to things and the perceptions we have it, that give us those meanings, but you realize they’re just your story and that they’re your stories.

Deepak Chopra: And by the way, for every story you have, there are infinite versions of that story.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. And it’s like I said to my wife another day, we were doing it like a podcast interview and it talked about happiness and I said, something that I think bothered her. I said, “Well, you know, I realize” that my preferences aren’t really that important. Your happiness is more important. And she thought, well, I don’t want to not have you get what you want. I’m like, well, it doesn’t really matter most times.

Deepak Chopra: But again, the question is based on a very fundamental, very fundamental misrepresentation. And that is who or what is I? When they see I, what do I mean by that? Okay so once you ask yourself that question there is then there is only giving.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, so we had these two little drinks. One was like a tangerine lemongrass and there was like a blood orange, you know, ginger or something. And we tried each one. I said, “Which one do you like?” She said, “I like this one.” I’m like, “Okay you can have it.” She’s like, “Well what about you? Don’t you like it?” I’m like, “Yeah, I like it, but I like you to be happy, better.”

Deepak Chopra: Yeah, which makes me happy.

Dr. Mark Hyman: It makes me happy. [inaudible 00:57:11] I care and I feel like that’s a place where I think if we all worked on, like you said, if we worked on ourselves, the divisiveness, the conflict, the fear, the isolation, all that goes away.

Deepak Chopra: It goes away.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah. So Deepak, for president.

Deepak Chopra: Oh, no, no, no. That would be the ultimate destruction of everything I’ve sought for in my life.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Maybe, maybe but imagine if there was someone who was awake in the oval office or in halls of power. I mean that would be great.

Deepak Chopra: There have been people. Martin Luther King jr and Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela and many others across the ages.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, it’s true. Yeah, but most of them were in prison at some point.

Deepak Chopra: They didn’t care.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Yeah, no, it’s true. It’s really true. So I just think that everybody should check out Metahuman. It’s an incredible story of how to break free from our small human with a small H and get to our metahuman with a big H.

Deepak Chopra: When you take a workshop on that, it’s free. You can go to

Dr. Mark Hyman: and of course follow Deepak on Instagram and his social media. He’s really great. He’s so generous with his information. He’s the real deal. I’ve known him for a long time and there’s a lot of bull [inaudible 00:58:35] out there, but he’s not one of them.

Deepak Chopra: Thank you, Mark.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Deepak thank you for all the support you’ve given me over the years and help. And I think your work is sort of a light on the darkness we have today because we are in a dark place and hopefully with a little bit of nudging here and there, we can wake up a few more people that can then sort of begin to change things.

Deepak Chopra: Thank you, Mark.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Because it’s a dark time and I think we’re ready for some from backlash against the darkness to the light.

Deepak Chopra: Thank you, thank you.

Dr. Mark Hyman: Well, thank you for listening to Doctor’s Farmacy. Thank you. Being on show Deepak. And if you love this conversation, please share with your friends and family on social media. Subscribe where we get our podcasts and leave a comment. We’d love to hear from you and we’ll see you next week on the Doctor’s Farmacy.

Deepak Chopra: Thank you.

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If you are looking for personalized medical support, we highly recommend contacting Dr. Hyman’s UltraWellness Center in Lenox, Massachusetts today.

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